Tolkien Discussion Group
May 12, 2010
Topic: Dwarves - part 3
Present:
Rosie Gray
AelKennyr Rhiano
Lihan Taifun
Shawn Daysleeper
Dominique Darkwatch
InyaRay Oktomica
Tuatha Shippe
Summary:
We continue the question of how Aulë could forget Dwarf Mothers, to accompany the Dwarf Fathers.
We know dwarves have more males than females. Many males did not marry, and 100 years old was a typical age to marry. At that rate, dwarves would be in no danger of overpopulating.
How many dwarves were there in Middle Earth? At least seven major communities, since Sauron gave seven Rings of Power to seven dwarf lords.
We try to imagine dwarf children.
Dwarves are always very private and secretive race, and extremely so in family matters. The female dwarves seldom travelled outside the dwarf communities. (Also it is difficult for other races to distinguish male from female dwarves.) Probably the dwarf women were overprotected, sheltered, and valued primarily for breeding, in a rather Victorian manner.
Most of the book The Hobbit describes Bilbos travels with thirteen dwarves, and we learn very little about the backgrounds or backstories or personal motives of those dwarves. Even making allowances that The Hobbit is a children's story, and not very deep, it still reinforces the idea that dwarves are incredibly private beings.
The evidence we have - or the lack of mention of female dwarves - suggests dwarf society was extremely male-dominated. Women didn't count for much besides reproduction, or occupy positions of power, or do anything of importance or note. Did the dwarves get this male-centric attitude from Aulë? Aulë who didn't bother to tell his wife he was making dwarves.
In the era JRRT was writing, this was as close as one could come to an all-male society - just enough invisible females to sustain the race. Meanwhile, with a large population of unmarried males who don't consider females as worthy companions and who never talk about their private lives, how can we avoid thinking there was a lot of homosexuality? Since the dwarves were created by Aulë, and not directly by Ilúvatar, that would releave the squeamishness JRRT would certainly have felt about a homosexual society. Not being "real" children of Ilúvatar, it would be ok if the dwarves were "flawed", according to JRRT's ideals.
How do dwarves view themselves?
- determined, dedicated, loyal, stout-hearted
- strong, masculine, hard-working, stoic, high stamina
- clever, good with mechanical things, highly skilled, admiring good workmanship
- long memories, both for favors and for slights
- private
- practical, rather than sentimental
Were dwarves as smart as elves? Yes, in different areas. Elves values languages, and dwarves didn't. On the other hand, there are strong resemblances between "mithril" and titanium. If the dwarves were extracting and working titanium, under essentially medieval circumstances, that would be an incredible skill.
Did the dwarves feel closer to Aulë than they did toward Ilúvatar? Probably
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . so, the people who were here last week ... where did you leave the discussion? Did you ever figure out why Aule made Dwarf Fathers and no Dwarf Mothers? Seems like a serious oversight to me
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .No, not really. But. But
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Did he not pay any attention to Yavanna's animals? Was he that clueless?
Rosie Gray snickers
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .We did talk about the fact that we have to remember when Tolkien was creating his works, and societal constructs women were not given places of power in Tolkien very often.
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . It is a reflection of his day
Dominique Darkwatch: . Maybe he was clueless or didn't care
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . True ... but still ... we are talking about forgetting females in a purely reproductive role
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .Well, he had to have some clue...he was the spouse of a female Ainur
Dominique Darkwatch: . Well...he was doing this sort of in secret
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Aule was
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . Why was he not scolded as was Melkor ?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . He did get a stern talking-to from Iluvatar
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .Could it be that he didn't think about dwarven mothers because sex was not that important to Ainur at that time.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . Wonder what Dwarves would have unique to being made in such a way
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . That's a good point Ael
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .That is a good question
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . Very earthly in nature I suppose.. not ethreal in any way
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .Would Aule really grasp the importance of sexual reproduction? What did he make before the Dwarves?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . well, since Iluvatar said he wasn't going to do any modifications on the dwarves, he must have allowed Aule to fix the "mothers" problem, otherwise, this would have been a real short-lived race
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . hmmm... he must have
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . good question, was this Aule's first project in living beings?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .Do we know that dwarves reproduce sexually for a fact?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Yes, we do
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . How else would they have reproduced?
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . Maybe they were clones..
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . oh hmmm. Rosie Gray imagines dwarf scientists
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .There many forms of reprodcution in nature
InyaRay Oktomica giggles
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . We know they reproduce sexually, and we know the gender ration is not even. There are more males than females
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . Right, it is mentioned somewhere I believe
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Many males don't marry, and that they didn't marry until they were about 100 years old
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Well, neither do elves
Rosie Gray nods. But there are far more female elves than dwarves
Dominique Darkwatch: . True
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Silmarillion says "Aule made the dwarves strong to endure" There isn't much else on propogating the race
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .We know they can have children, the dwarves , but later in life, like the elves.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . So did Aule make mothers then?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . For elves, it isn't "late in life". For dwarves ... what is a dwarf life span? 400 years?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .So this idea of long lived races reproducing later in the life....welll, comparative to other shorter lived races.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . "they live long, far beyond the span of Men"
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .I was going to say that was a nice way of preventing elves and dwarves to overpopulate.
Shawn Daysleeper agrees
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Yes, they would need something to keep from overpopulating
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . I don't think there were lots of dwarves over time, we are told there was only around 100 at the battle of five armies for example
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. But why would there not be more than that?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . So their numbers must have been small
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .That sounds like they were almost on the brink of extinction.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Lack of mothers? Long gestation time. Life span is long
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . There were seven rings of power given to seven dwarf lords. That implies a dwarf population large enough for seven poweful lords, at least
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Yes, the dwarf lord ringbearers may have been 7 dwarf fathers reborn
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . Maybe they just are not very affectionate..
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . Maybe dwarven children are really unbearable
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . lol
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . They say dwarves are very devoted to their mates
Dominique Darkwatch: . hehee
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Dwarven children ... that does sound dangerous
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . Are there any tales of dwarven children ?
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . They are a secretive folk. I think they must protect their families privacy with great care
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Tales of dwarven children, none that I recall
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Privacy, yes.Dwarves were always big on privacy
Rosie Gray nods
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . Maybe Aule just made more...
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . So perhaps there were more female dwarves, and children than were openly acknowledged for some reason. Could be their cultural preference
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . They may be overprotective of the females and children. Maybe a closed society for them
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I agree with Shawn there
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . Perhaps the women dwarves dressed the same as the men... and with their beards and all... outsiders couldn't distinquish them?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . That too. It said somewhere dwarf women didn't travel much outside the dwarf communities
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . oh, that helps a lot,actually
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . it does
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . yes. The women didn't do anything noteworthy, were secretly protected by the named males
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Sounds very Victorian
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . the males themselves were pretty secretive too though
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . agree
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . maybe even more dark ages?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . We know next to nothing about the dwarves in the Hobbit, when the whole story focusses on their journey. Not Thorin. They're private
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . That he had a sister?
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . He had a sister?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Well, what I meant
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Like take Bombur, who was his family, did he have sisters?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . One of them had a sister, because some of the other dwarves were his nephews
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . hmmm... or a brother with a wife
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes. And why did they decide to go displace a dragon? Were their opportunities limited at home?
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . Not enough challenges at home! rofl indeed
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . I think the dragon occupied Thorin's grandfathers old kingdom
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . sure, THORIN had a motive, but why did specifically these other 12 decide to come along
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . exactly, my point
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Your point indeed. I was agreeing
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . 12 main characters, no background. So the main ones are private - dwarves
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . Could be that JRR was planning on another extended backstory for them... at a later time
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . yes
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Well, the story was an extended bedtime story for his children, so, not real deep
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . I believe so
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . The Hobbit, yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .Maybe the dwarves were the ultimate "old boys' club?"
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . Well they certainly seem like they were
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .And females left to shift for their own..in terms of identity and social importance
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . well, not being an old boy, I'm not sure I grasp the significance
Shawn Daysleeper agrees with Ael
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . Insignificant females and youngsters...
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . Nobody comes into any kind of social importance until they are mature, and of course male
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Females were likely present, but not significant enough to be mentioned in the tales
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . That does sound like the dwarves
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . indeed
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .Well, part of the "old boys' club" the assertion of male superiority would be maintained
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Did they get that attitude from Aule?
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . And the dwarven history that we know, is pretty sketchy anyway
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Ya, like the names of the other 6 fathers
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . It's the way people used to think of history... who was king, who won the war... who were the generals, not much else
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Important, but not clear
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .That is an interesting thought...: did that come from Aule? Was he egotistical?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . I'm inclined to agree
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .Maybe he didn't tell Yavanna about the creation of the dwarves because he felt it was not important she know
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . He did seem to be brushing her off
Shawn Daysleeper nods
elKennyr Rhiano: And notice how masculine dwarven women are: They have beards.Can be warriors
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . THAT's what male dwarves find attractive?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .perhaps
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . lol
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .Perhaps, since homosexuality would have been taboo, this is the closest he could come to an all male society and still have it procreate and thrive?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . interesting thought
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Procreate by some safely invisible females, not too many of them
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . He slipped it in well
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. That is why there is a female presence absent in dwarven society....
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . That makes sense
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . yes, genious
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . And a lot of unmarried male dwarves who don't discuss their private lives
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . That very much fits with the times JRR was living in
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .Even procreation to ensure the race survives. And because they were not "children" of Illuvatar, they are second class of a sort
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . oh yes good point Ael
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . agree with Ael, unfortunately that is how it is seen
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . Well it's not as though procreation was really discussed for the other races either
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .However, we have even inferences to draw assumptions: The story of Melian and Elu, for example; other love stories
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . true
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .But none of that for the dwarves, really
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . But they stand out as being fairly unusual examples, most of the stories are adventures
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .Agreed
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . the elves and humans seem to have fairly idealized love lives --- following JRRT's ideals
Rosie Gray nods agreement
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Dwarves, we know hardly anything
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .Except they were allow to exist because of Illuvatar's tolerant nature
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . It does leave room for all kinds of story development
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Except for being "devoted mates", which is hardly surprising if females were a scares reproductive commodity
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . Perhaps they were more Roman in their private lives: females were pretty much for reproduction, carrying on the old bloodlines, but love, passion... was between males?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . So, with their history, and without the direct connection to Iluvatar ... who knows what they were up to?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .Could be
Shawn Daysleeper nods
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .Well, it could also be a way to infer they were somehow "flawed" not being created by Illuvatar.
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . In some ways they are the most mysterious of the folk
Shawn Daysleeper agrees. Definately regarding love passion reproduction
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . true Ael
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .how do the dwarves see themselves?
Rosie Gray looks at the token dwarf amongst them.
{Lihan is wearing her Aztryd, the Firebeard Dwarf, av tonight.}
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . determined
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . loyal
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . stout-hearted
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .how did they see themsleves in comparision to other races?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes, determined, loyal
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . clever
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . I was comparing dwarves
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .and how did they regard Aule vs Illuvatar?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . what's the polite version of "stubborn"?
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . lol
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .willful?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . "not easily distracted"?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . strong willed
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . dedicated
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . strong in all senses
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . "dedicated" sounds good
Shawn Daysleeper agrees
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . long memories for favors given and recieved
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .and for betrayals
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . (I did reread the Hobbit not to long ago)
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . and a lust for treasure
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . They know what they want
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . And admiration for good workmanship
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .jealousy?
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . private
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . definitely!
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . secretive
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . practical, rather than sentimental
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . macho!
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .oh, good one
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .macho, yes
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . but not given to flashy heroics
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . toil long
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . work hard
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . stoic too, I think
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . high stamina
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . oh yes
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . very
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . have to be carrying around those big hammers etc
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . Do dwarves think of themselves as clever..intelligent as much as elves?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .Do you think they ever felt like they had to make up for being the creation of Aule as opposed being children of Illuvatar?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . they are crafty
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . I think they do, but in different areas
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . how about Ainur and Maiar?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I think dwarves dothink of themselves as clever
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . yes I agree Lihan
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . good with mechanical things
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . and craftsmanship
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . also politics, for that matter
Shawn Daysleeper nods
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . very highly skilled
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . politics?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .Why do you say politics?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . I'm not sure about intellegence
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .That is very interesting.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Political manueverings within the dwarf clans?
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . so...sizing themselves up against other races is...pointless...they have unique values, so its pointless
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .ohhh, yes'
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Why do you say intelligence, Shawn?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . I'm asking. Sorry wasn't clear
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . I was wondering about the politics
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . I said intelligence. Are they as smart as Elves
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . As far as what we would call "engineering", dwarves are unmatched
Shawn Daysleeper agrees
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . some how 'macho' has its stereotype, ya know
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .true
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . Yes and they made the silmaril into a necklace, so they must have been unmatched in that kind of work too
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . very clever
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I think that was a reference to the previous section about the dwarves being a male-dominated society
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . creative intelligence. Intelligence is....dwarfnocentric
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I think the elves looke down their noses at the dwarves, because ... mostly I suppose because they were elves
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . lol
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . but they didn't develop their language - dwarves
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .but there are several different types of intelligence, and language denoted intelligence to the elves
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . aye indeed
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Elves loved languages, dwarves weren't really into that
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Dwarves we re just as smart, just in different areas
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . someone said that
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . elfnocentric
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . yes indeed
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I was just reading something that was saying how much the descriptions of "mithril" resemble titanium
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .It does, doesn't it
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . .If dwarves were mining and working titanium, with medieval technology, or, when everyone else had medieval technology
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Titanium isn't the easiest metal to extract
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .impressive
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Not at all. And even assuming Aule gave them some hints, it still shows incredible skill
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .nod nod nod
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Did Aule continue to counsel the dwarves after the 7 fathers awoke?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . It's hard to imagine him not. His whole motivation was to have some "children'" to teach
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .I agree
Shawn Daysleeper nods
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . I think he would have counselled them
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I can imagine the dwarves would have felt a lot closer to Aule than to Iluvatar
Shawn Daysleeper agrees
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . Since they are kind of made in his own image
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . And he was actually around to help them
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . well
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I wonder if Aule ... I don't know ... kind of encouraged that distant feeling toward Iluvatar
Rosie Gray is wondering if we have exhausted this topic
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Three weeks on dwarves, it has been a long discussion
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . It was interesting though. Sorry I didn't mean to stop you
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Yes, learned a lot
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Next topic? One that came up, sort of tangentially, this week, was the great kings.Who were the really good ones, and why?
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . That sounds interesting
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Sounds good to me
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Aragorn is kind of set up as the archetypal king ... but what is it about him?
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . hmmm yes.Everyone loves ARagorn
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . And everyone hates Denethor
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . mmm<hehe>
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .There is something appealing about the king who does not want to be king. And who must take a trip of self discovery
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . Who chooses love over a kindom?
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . Hides his light under a bushel
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .To find within himself...yes
Shawn Daysleeper nods
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . ㋡
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .Many wear a crown...few are kings.
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . His reluctance does not make him a better choice
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . .No, it is why he is reluctant
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . That's true
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . And what is it that does make him the better choice? Next week, then!
