Beren and Lúthien

Tolkien Discussion Group

July 21, 2010

Topic: Beren and Lúthien

Present:

Rosie Gray

Shawn Daysleeper

AelKennyr Rhiano

Lihan Taifun

InyaRay Oktomica

Summary:

There is a lot of "magic" in this story, compared to Lord of the Rings. Luthien growing her hair long, and weaving a sleep-claok from it; Felegund's song-battle with Sauron; Luthien seducing Melkor. Is this because there was more magic in earlier ages? Or simply a storytelling device?

If the magic became less common, or less powerful, with time, what was the reason? The discussion got highly metaphysical. The vibrational energy of angels was mentioned.

We don't know much about the origins or the mechanism of elven magic. It may have been something the elves learned from the Ainur, in Aman. Was Aragorn's skill as a healer a form of magic, in this sense?

We know little about elvish weddings. Legally, all the was required was the agreement of the bride and groom, and them living together. The concern about Thingol "giving" or not giving his daughter's hand seems human-medival rather than elvish.

Is it possible that Beren and Luthien were already "married" by elvish standards, and just didn't tell anyone? Or did they spend all that time alone together in the wilderness chastely? Which is the more romantic possibility?

---

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . This is such a good story

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . The one about Beren and Luthien?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes :)

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I was surprised how much "magic" was in it

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . oh I'd forgotten that too Lihan

InyaRay Oktomica: magic.. so wonderful

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to re-read it

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . The elves in Lord of the Rings don't use much "magic", but in Beren and Luthien, they are magicking all over the place. And Felegund's song-battle with Sauron -- that was great (except for Felegund losing ...)

Shawn Daysleeper: With magick you mean her seduction of Melkor?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . That was one example. And making the sleeping-cloak out of her own hair

Shawn Daysleeper: Yes I found Beren and Luthien's story to be quite memorable

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . indeed

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . What was your favorite part?

Shawn Daysleeper: Were characters simply more magical in the 1st age than in the 3rd? My favourite part was that her song seduced the great enemy

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Or was it a storytelling device? "Magic" would have interfered with the plot in Lord of the Rings

InyaRay Oktomica: Perhpas as things evolved there was less magic

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Perhaps over time, suspension in the belief in magic occurred and that, in turn, caused magic to become more scarce?

Shawn Daysleeper: or did magic itself degrade?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . good question

Shawn Daysleeper: As elves became less influencial in middle earth?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . But did magic originate from the elves themselves?or from the ainur?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I'm not sure how elven magic worked

InyaRay Oktomica: or even from Illuvitar, and then became more it's own thing.. creation

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . That is a good point, Inya.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Melkor and Sauron, who were Ainur, seemed to have the same KIND of magic as the elves. Whatever that proves

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . But if the souce is Illuvatar, that would make perfect sense.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . And the elves were given access to this kind of power, and humans not?

Shawn Daysleeper: So it would seem

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Humans are not barred.

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . Maybe some of it is through the intermarriages.You know, as in Luthien bringing some of the Ainur magic to the elves

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Perhaps just not aware?

Shawn Daysleeper: Aragorn had his healing skill

AelKennyr Rhiano nods

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . hmmm wait a sec that doesn't make sense, what I just said. lol

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . lol

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . It wouldn't explain Felagund

Rosie Gray nods

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . In the beginning, the elves...were they aware they had use of magic? Or did they come to an awareness over time? Such could be the case for humans

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . yes

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . That would explain Aragorn

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . And it sort of depends on your definition of 'magic' too

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . It seems like something they studied, in Valinor

Shawn Daysleeper: yes

InyaRay Oktomica: It would seem that somehow not having magic is the more evolved state

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Can you elaborate, Inya?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . After the passing of the 3rd Age, I could see more humans discovering and harnessing magical abilities.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Oh, yes, please, Inya.

InyaRay Oktomica: just that closer to Illuvitar = more magical

the first born but not after

less and less

not immortal, not magical

why ?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Does "later" always mean "more evolved"?

Shawn Daysleeper: That doesn't explain Aragorn though

InyaRay Oktomica: It was always in the song, so not by chance

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . by more evolved, do you mean just further down the line, Inya?

InyaRay Oktomica: I think there is that in humans that is beyond magic

AelKennyr Rhiano listens carefully

InyaRay Oktomica: Perhaps simple independance, or such. But something, not of Illuvitar .. the beginning of a transcendant existance :) Something, something new

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . wow...

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . interesting

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes, very

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . a little too deep for me ... I'm afraid I am lost

InyaRay Oktomica: not of Luthian either .. :)

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . can you elaborate Inya, on your thoughts?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes, because I find this fascinating :)

InyaRay Oktomica: sorry. I dont know how else to say it :)

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . :D

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . :)

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . I am not very .. metaphysically minded I guess lol

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Well, if you look back at judeo-christian mysticism... angels vibrate at a certain etheral frequency. And when angels "fall from grace" or become more eathbound...

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . Does that make it easier for them to fit on the head of the pin? lol, sorry

InyaRay Oktomica: :)

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . they become "heavier" and vibrate at a lower frequency...actually, yes. :) The lower the frequency, the less connected to the God source. Thus they would lose that which makes them angelic in the first place.

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . wow, well that's all out of my depth I'm afraid!

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . So I think Inya may be saying something similar?

InyaRay Oktomica: yes :)

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . So where does "magic" fit into this?

Shawn Daysleeper: A lot of Prof. Tolkein's stories have origins in ancient judeo-christan belief

InyaRay Oktomica: Magic is of the higher vibratory state

AelKennyr Rhiano nods

InyaRay Oktomica: It is only magic relative to the lower state

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . So eventually, over enough centuries Ainur would become mortal, Inya?

InyaRay Oktomica: No. They are what they are

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . ah, now I understand what you meant. Rosie Gray grins

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yay

Rosie Gray is sometimes a bit slow on the uptake

Shawn Daysleeper: Me too

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Most of the time I am, too.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . So ... does this mean all of Ea is getting more and more detacted from Iluvatar? Lihan Taifun scratches her head

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . or more and more mortal

InyaRay Oktomica: It may have been the goal

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . and is that one and the same thing?

InyaRay Oktomica: wonderful :) perhaps so

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Why might it have been the goal?

InyaRay Oktomica: That which was outside of space/time wished to create that which is in it. One requires time to be mortal

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . well...ummm... There is this idea that one reason we exist is for us to experience God, we have to experience what God is not. in order to know what God is.

Rosie Gray finds this a strange notion, the idea that we would exist to not experience something

Shawn Daysleeper: I thought God was supposed to be in everything

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Well, it is an idea, one of many

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Is this like "fish don't notice water"? There needs to be a contrast?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes, Lihan

InyaRay Oktomica: It is a question, why one should experience mortaltiy

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes, it is, with more than one possible answer

Shawn Daysleeper scratches his head

Rosie Gray scratches her head too

Shawn Daysleeper thinks he needs more coffee

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Somehow, we got very metaphysical...blushes...sorry.

InyaRay Oktomica: my fault..

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . we could .... discuss marriage customs of the Sindar?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . no, no It is not a fault, Inya. It was very good discussion, I enjoyed hearing it...really.

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . it is good

InyaRay Oktomica: :)

Shawn Daysleeper: yes it is good

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . But yes, may we discuss the Sindar marriage customs?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . It was a tangent. We always go off on interesting tangents

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . I was just unprepared for such

InyaRay Oktomica: What are these traditions ?

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . I think the tangents are always interesting

InyaRay Oktomica: customs

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . I don't know!

InyaRay Oktomica: lol

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . lol

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Tolkiens wrote an essay on "Laws and Customs of the Eldar", but I don't know whether it even applied to the Sindar

InyaRay Oktomica: Eldar.. is that not to mean elves in general ? and Sindar being this.. would I suppose fit that

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . Yes I think it would.

AelKennyr Rhiano nods

InyaRay Oktomica: So... :) what are these customs

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . All we really know, I think is that they proclaimed themselves to be a couple and started living together. I think

InyaRay Oktomica: Hardly fits into an essay: "we do" lol

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . true. Makes it hard to have a big splash-up do for a wedding

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Well, they enjoyed the wedding, as a party

InyaRay Oktomica: I would have expected wondeful ceremonies, all gossamer and light

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Get the whole family together. But, like Rosie said, it wasn't the ceremony that made the legal marriage

AelKennyr Rhiano gave you Tolkien Elvish Sexuality, marriage and parenthood.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I have had this awhile.

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . think I gave it to you!

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . omg...you did. yay I remember now!

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . lol Well I didn't write it

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . http://www.ansereg.com/what_tolkien_officially_said_abo.htm

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . http://www.ansereg.com/warm_beds_are_good.htm

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I thought it very strange that there was a serious possibilty of Thingol "giving" Luthien to Curufin without her permission. Well, Thingol wasn't planning on it, but both Luthien and Curufin thought it a possible event

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Sounds very medieval

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . There are always special extenuating circumstances around royal weddings though

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Yes, it does sound very medieval

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . It does

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . And not what I would have expected for elves

InyaRay Oktomica: politics ?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . It always sounded like a political marriage. Yes, I agree, Lihan.

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . And was one of my reasons for thinking of the Thingol charachter as I did

AelKennyr Rhiano nods

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . Think of all those fairy-stories where princesses are locked up, until the correct suitor is chosen

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Do we have any examples of political marriages? CAN elves have a loveless marriage?

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . It doesn't seem likely, does it?

InyaRay Oktomica: It does not

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . It seems so unlike the way JRRT imagined his elves

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . Yes, it's a kind of anomaly, the way that story was written. Must be more to it

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Well, it struck me as odd

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Well Earwen's marriage to Finarfin could be construed as political, but there was also love there.

Rosie Gray nods

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . And there is a collolary ... since the official ceremony is not required, were Luthien and Beren actually "married", and just never told Thingol?

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . Oh that's interesting

InyaRay Oktomica: so romantic

Shawn Daysleeper: yes

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Melian said more than once that it was too late, their fates were already entwined

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . so tragic

InyaRay Oktomica: It is as if she knew

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Tragic, but so like youngsters to go off and ... not think through the consequences of what they are doing

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . She had the power of foresight, so she probably did know

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . And those two spent a lot of time alone together in the wilds, sometimes in great danger, and we are supposed to believe nothing happened? Ok, we are reading this 50 years later, but still ...

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . ㋡

Shawn Daysleeper: :)

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . Well they had a child

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Later they did. After Beren paid off Thingol

InyaRay Oktomica: Perhaps they only kissed and said 'someday'...

Shawn Daysleeper: yeah right

InyaRay Oktomica: :)

Rosie Gray thinks that InyaRay is a hopeless romantic :D

InyaRay Oktomica: It would be so sweet if they did this

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . That is the way the story is written ....

InyaRay Oktomica: I knew I liked Tolkien for some reason :)

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . heh heh

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . :)

Shawn Daysleeper: :)

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . ㋡ It's a larger than life epic tale, for sure

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . nod nod nod

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . I'm sure there's more the the Beren/Luthien story that we could discuss.... sorry I am tired this evening

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . awww

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I think we have reached a good stopping point. We could continue next week?

Thingol and Melian

Tolkien Discussion Group

July 14, 2010

Topic: Silmarillion, Chapter 10: Thingol and Melian

Present:

Rosie Gray (who plays Queen Melian, in Arda and Fellowship of the 4th Age)

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer (who used to play King Thingol, aka Elwë, or Elu, in Arda)

Shawn Daysleeper

AelKennyr Rhiano

Fifi Wickentower

Lihan Taifun

Ossy Portocarrero

Puma Kawanishi

Ilianor Illios

InyaRay Oktomica

(If you are trying to follow the chat, it helps to know: Ossy = the Maia Ossë, AelKennyr = King Olwë, InyaRay = the Vala Vána, Oromë's wife. We have difficulty staying out of character.)

Summary:

Ossy told the story of "The Tall and the Maiar".

Rosie discussed what might have attracted Melian to Elwë.

We considered at what point in the story Melian might have created a complete working physical body for herself, as opposed to a visible projection. She would have to give up a lot of Ainu abilities -- like flying -- to live permanently as an incarnated being.

We discussed what Tolkien meant by the comment "Great power Melian lent to Thingol..." Did Thingol actually aquire Maia-like powers? Or does that just mean Melian helped him and gave him good advice?

The passage "And of the love of Thingol and Melian there came into the world the fairest of all the children of Ilúvatar that was or ever shall be" is also ambiguous. We know of only one child, Lúthien Tinuviel.

The turning point in Thingol's life was when he asked for the Silmaril, against Melian's advice. His life went downhill from there.

It isn't so unusual for fathers to be overprotective of their daughters.

Elwë and Olwë never saw each other again, after Elwë met Melian.

After Thingol's death, the Sindar drifted apart. Thingol's grandson Dior tried unsucessfully to keep the kingdom together. Menegroth was sacked. Melian returned to Lorien in the Undying Lands, broken hearted. Thingol's sword Aranrúth, however, stayed in the family, and eventually came to the kings of Númenor.

---

AelKennyr Rhiano: I did have a drow talk about joining us tonight in case we had questions from the last discussions. I hope she can make it.

Fifi Wickentower: And I'm not sure if Shawn knows that Ted was King Thingol and Rosie Queen Melian :))

Lihan Taifun: so where do we start on the story of Elu and Meleian? We all know the story, I think

Fifi Wickentower: Ossy had quite the version, as I recall

AelKennyr Rhiano: nod nod nod

Shawn Daysleeper smiles

Lihan Taifun: yes, we could start with Ossy

Ossy Portocarrero: The Tall and the Maiar. It got discontinue because it was too racy for daytime television

Lihan Taifun: Tell us the tale, O bard!

Ossy Portocarrero: Oh geez, I have to remember the whole thing?! So does anyone NOT know the story?

AelKennyr Rhiano raises his hand.

Ossy Portocarrero: ....

Shawn Daysleeper laughs

Rosie Gray raises an eyebrow at Ael

Ossy Portocarrero: You've been there every time I've told it, so put your hand down!

AelKennyr Rhiano puts his hand down.

Rosie Gray: You have a particular version, Ossy?

Ossy Portocarrero: yes

Rosie Gray: I haven't heard it

Ossy Portocarrero: I think Ive just decided to call it "The Tall and the Maiar". Shall I leave out the sordid kissy bits?

Shawn Daysleeper: no

Rosie Gray: hahahha You can gloss over them :D

Shawn Daysleeper: The whole thing :)

AelKennyr Rhiano: I think Shawn is a romantic :)

Shawn Daysleeper smiles

Ossy Portocarrero: So... the reason why this story is important is that it involves me.. Ossë. I'm the main character, just keep that in mind.

Rosie Gray laughs

Ossy Portocarrero: Secon.... Ossy Portocarrero glares at Rosie. Secondarily it involves the story of the elves migrating towards Valimar

Rosie Gray winks at Ossy and blows a kiss. ㋡

Ossy Portocarrero: So...We all know the story of the creation of the world. Singing, yada yada, oh no! Ea, and then waiting around playing "Sandbox" until the children of Illúvatar show up

AelKennyr Rhiano: Sandbox?

Ossy Portocarrero: Well, while this waiting was going on, ... sandbox... a small box of sand where you can build things to your hearts content, and then run around and stomp it all down while you pretend to be Godzilla

Eä was our playground, by our I mean the Ainu. We made rivers and mountains and some of us made dwarves... There was a lot of making stuff, like in a sandbox. Sim-city, before there were computers.

So... a particular Valar named Oromë, or "The Hunter" used to run around on his big horse, and just scout the unknown regions of Middle Earth. It passed the time, you know.

Remember, I'm the main character. Ossy Portocarrero clears his throat

AelKennyr Rhiano: uh-huh

Ossy Portocarrero: So, one time as he was ... shush, as he was riding around, he heard this beautiful singing. The only beings to sing, at this point were the Ainu. But this singing was new and different and beautiful. So, he followed the sound and came upon... the first of the Children! The elves!

AelKennyr Rhiano: Yay, Elves!

Ossy Portocarrero: They were all innocent and running about, singing and dancing and having a blast. And he wanted to meet them

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: :~)

Ossy Portocarrero: but before he had seen them, Melkor, who is evil, was pressing rumors on the elves, saying that the hunter's mount was a terrible beast that ATE elves! And that Oromë kidnapped the elves and KILLED THEM! Aiiieee! So... when Oromë strides into the elven settlement, TERROR AND FEAR!

You see, the elves were like babies. Complete cowards. And also very wishy washy.

AelKennyr Rhiano: I remember reading that in the National Elf Inquirer

Ossy Portocarrero: They just couldnt decide on anything.

AelKennyr Rhiano: Hay!

Rosie Gray giggles

Ossy Portocarrero: Ael! Sh!

AelKennyr Rhiano glares

Ossy Portocarrero glares back.The eleves were terrified

Shawn Daysleeper: awwww

Ossy Portocarrero: But Oromë mananged to calm them down enough to tell them about Valimar

Rosie Gray: poor dears

Ossy Portocarrero: Valimar is like the Emerald City of Eä, except even better. The Ainu live there and its all goodness and honey and light and magical candy stores that are free and also pudding.

Fifi Wickentower: and cake

Ossy Portocarrero: But the elves didn't trust Oromë, (they were still afraid of his elf-eating horse) but after much debate, they decided to send... yes cake, to send their leaders with Oromë to see this Valimar.

Shawn Daysleeper: pudding mmmm

Ossy Portocarrero: So the leaders three of these kindgoms got together and went with Oromë and saw Valimar, so they could make everyone else believe. Elwë and Olwë, the leaders of the Teleri went. And 2 other kingdom leaders.

But this trip takes FOR-FREAKING-EVER! because the elves are new and keep going "Oooh Ahh Look at that! This is very Pretty! I wonder if I can get this back home!! etc, and slowing down the party

Lihan Taifun: So, elves live forever, what's the hurry?

Rosie Gray: ha

Ossy Portocarrero: ... the hurry is, Oromë has shite to do and places to ride around on his horse. And ... look Im telling the story ok? This is just how it is

AelKennyr Rhiano: We were tourists!

Ossy Portocarrero: ANYWAY

They get to Valimar and they LOVE IT. Its FIERCE darling, FIERCE. So they HURRY back and tell everyone all about it, about the pudding particularly.

Shawn Daysleeper: yes :)

AelKennyr Rhiano: and cake. AelKennyr Rhiano nods at Fifi

Fifi Wickentower: nom

Ossy Portocarrero: So... not everyone wants to go, because like I said, wishy washy elves. They are promised candy and lollipops and pudding... and cake, and they're not convinced.

But still, most of them go, and start heading west.

They couldnt go through the pass they went with alone with Oromë. There's too many of them. So they decided to go by the sea.

So they're walking around, and its all honky and dory, and they get to the sea and the Teleri are SO impressed... well... they practically wet themslves

... Now, while all this traveling is going on .. . Elwë, the tallest elf and eldest brother of Olwë... is obsessed with Valimar. Along the trip, he would sometimes just pick up and go, back on to Valimar, all on his own. WITHOUT telling anyone. He just walks off into the woods, any odd time, and wanders over there.

There is this Maia Melian, who is all about music. Music music music! Singing and singing like forever. And she sings so well, whenever she sings, everyone in Lorien STOPS what they are doing and just runs over to hear her sing, Ainu, animals, I mean.. you name it. She sings SO pretty that the birds love her and flutter around her endlessly, and she teaches them songs.

So she's doing the "Sleeping Beauty" thing, you know, walking around the woods, singing to the birds, pretending that her true love will come, hitting those high notes. And who should walk upon her but Elwë... he is very tall, he can see her through the branches. So he stumbles into the clearing and he looks at her, and she sings a littlemore and then looks at him and they both just... stand there ... looking at each other.

And then they reach out one hand... and walk towards each other. And while theyre making googly eyes at each other, every thought ever runs out of Elwës mind. He completely loses track of what he was doing where he was going and of his people...Suddenly, their hands touch, a burst of powerful romantic music crescendos! They look into each others eyes and then... time stops (for them).

They stand there, holding hands, like statues, while little birds flutter around them for years and years and years, pooping on them.

AelKennyr Rhiano: Euuu

Shawn Daysleeper laughs

Ossy Portocarrero: So! Back to the Teleri.

WTF, WHERE IS OUR KING! OLWË, WHERE IS YOUR BROTHER?! YOUR BROTHER IS GONE. HE IS OUR KING. FIND HIM OMG!

But they have to keep going... Oromë is leading them to the waters edge! ... so... the few Super Elwë Fanatics (c) stay behind and spend the next many years looking for Elwë. They come to be known as "The Forgotten"

AelKennyr Rhiano turns to Ted....We DID try to find you, but you had the only map!

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: :~)

Ossy Portocarrero: yeah, jerk

Rosie Gray laughs

Ossy Portocarrero: So....

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: Whatever happened to Elmo?

AelKennyr Rhiano: Yeah!

Ossy Portocarrero: the non Elwë fanatics decide to make Olwë king and head off to the beach for the kegger

Fifi Wickentower: He moved to Sesame Street?

AelKennyr Rhiano: hahahahaha

Ossy Portocarrero: Hes a speed junky. Thats why he laughs so much.

Rosie Gray: :D

Lihan Taifun: He's your brother, you were supposed to watch him

AelKennyr Rhiano: Me? Elwë was the Eldest!

Ossy Portocarrero: focus! The main character is about to come into the story! Ossy Portocarrero claps his hand. Ossy Portocarrero: People! focus!

Shawn Daysleeper focuses

Ossy Portocarrero: ok so!So, Oromë summons Ulmo! Who is my boss. He's a great guy, good benefits

AelKennyr Rhiano: Good looking, I hear...

Shawn Daysleeper nods

InyaRay Oktomica thinks Oromë is most gorgeous

Ossy Portocarrero: He pops out of the water, all sea foamy and stuff and says in his voice as deep as the ocean, like the sound of many waves and says "Hey what's up Hunter, how's it going buddy?"

AelKennyr Rhiano smiles at Inya

Ossy Portocarrero: And in this ancient mystic language of the Ainu, Oromë replies, "Nothing much, man, hows it hanging?" And Olwë {editor: read "Ulmo"} says, in all seriously "Good man, the waves are killer!"

And then Oromë gets to the point and says "Hey listen, these guys here, they are elves", and meanwhile the elves are all terrified because a giant sea dude just came out of the water so they are freaking out and running around like headless chickens and Olwë sings to them with water music and they all calm down. Once the hyperventillating is over they all decide "yeah ok, lets get over to Valimar". So, Ossë... (the main character) has this awesome island

AelKennyr Rhiano mutters, "I never sai....oh....you mean, my singing CALMED people?"

Ossy Portocarrero: Its just a little off the coast there and it was made during a battle with Melkor

not Olwë, sorry Ulmo. ULMO sings. Your calming makes peoples ears bleed. Your SINGING.... Ive lost my mind. Ossy Portocarrero coughs

AelKennyr Rhiano slinks down in his seat

Lihan Taifun: That's what the elves say about the Valinorian language, too

AelKennyr Rhiano: That it makes people's ears bleed?

Lihan Taifun: yes

Ossy Portocarrero: ANYWAY

MY ISLAND IS AWESOME. Its my home away from home, because I hate my wife and she gets on my case a lot

Ossy Portocarrero: but Ulmo decides ... heh... but Ulmo decides to Uproot my island and drag it over like a boat and make the elves get on and then uses that take them to Valimar

InyaRay Oktomica: Who is this so bad wife ?

Fifi Wickentower: and meanwhile?? what about the gazing into each others eyes forever?

Ossy Portocarrero: but when Oromë used his horn to tell people to get on "Toot Toot, ALL ABOARD!" the Teleri were still way the F' over there... because they were delayed by Elwë and all that nonsense

LETS NOT TALK ABOUT MY STUPID WIFE! Ossy Portocarrero coughs, blushing

Yes yes I'm getting to that!

AelKennyr Rhiano: I like her...she's nice, Inya.

Ossy Portocarrero: ..... traitor

AelKennyr Rhiano: Very agreeable.

Lihan Taifun: She has more sense than Ossë, is the problem

AelKennyr Rhiano: heh heh

Ossy Portocarrero: So when the Teleri get to the beach, the other elves ... I'm talking here!

Rosie Gray is trying to remember who she is

Lihan Taifun: Uinen

Rosie Gray: oh yes thanks

Puma Kawanishi: :)

Rosie Gray smiles and remembers how lovely and sweet Uinen is

Ossy Portocarrero: The teleri are too late. The other elves are already hlf way to Valimar on my island... Ossy Portocarrero sobs. My lovely island

AelKennyr Rhiano nods in agreement

Ossy Portocarrero: You're all traitors. I'm done with the story :\

AelKennyr Rhiano: awwhhh

Shawn Daysleeper: poor Ossy

InyaRay Oktomica: It was wonderful

Rosie Gray: clap clap clap

Fifi Wickentower: there there Ossy

Shawn Daysleeper claps

Ossy Portocarrero: .....

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: Very entertaining. :~)

AelKennyr Rhiano: and original!

Ossy Portocarrero: and Elwë wakes up and is part Valar and him and Melian wake up and have a million babies which are the tallest and most beautiful of the elves, even taller than Olwë.

THE END

AelKennyr Rhiano: Hey!

Ossy Portocarrero: HAH!

Rosie Gray: hahhah

Shawn Daysleeper: haha

Ossy Portocarrero: TRAITOR! TAKE THAT

AelKennyr Rhiano: hahahaha

Puma Kawanishi smiles

InyaRay Oktomica: I did not know of all these tall bablies Rosie

Fifi Wickentower: Are they not the start of Elrond and that branch?

Rosie Gray tries to remember all the babies. Maybe it's the birds!

AelKennyr Rhiano: I'm an uncle to a lot of neices and nephews?

InyaRay Oktomica: baby birds.. so sweet

Fifi Wickentower: and what about the fabled Menegroth?

Ossy Portocarrero: who are taller and prettier than you Ael

InyaRay Oktomica: not

AelKennyr Rhiano: well, that's easy.

Shawn Daysleeper: haha

Ossy Portocarrero: those birds are replicating...

Rosie Gray: alas, poor Menegroth has been sacked

InyaRay Oktomica: It lives in the minds of those fortunate enough to have seen it

Fifi Wickentower: but for so very long it endured and grew and . .

Puma Kawanishi: What can you and Ted add to the story, Rosie? ....I figure playing those characters for so long, you have some good insights

AelKennyr Rhiano: What attracted Melian to Elwë?

Ossy Portocarrero: I think your birds are fighting with each other Meilian

Rosie Gray: I think that Melian was tired of being a spirit and wanted some passion ㋡

Ossy Portocarrero: pure animal attraction

InyaRay Oktomica: 1000 babies worth

Puma Kawanishi nods

Rosie Gray: hahhah

AelKennyr Rhiano: that's alot of passion..

Rosie Gray: no just one baby, the lovely Luthien

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: :~D

Rosie Gray settles into her seat

AelKennyr Rhiano: Not the 1000 babies...blushes...I mean...to ...um...

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: the loveliest of all the elves that were or ever will be.

Lihan Taifun: and, as Fifi said, an ancestor of all sorts of important people

InyaRay Oktomica: it sounds like a poem .. :)

Rosie Gray: actually it's kind of a good question, what did Melian see in Elwë

AelKennyr Rhiano nods

Rosie Gray: he was rather vain and quick to temper

AelKennyr Rhiano: What would an Ainu see in an elf?

Puma Kawanishi: Any number of things..... :)

Rosie Gray: well no, not just any elf, this particular elf

Ossy Portocarrero: He was really tall. He could reach the things on the high shelves for her

Rosie Gray: It's true he was really tall

InyaRay Oktomica: This is nice.. but not enough

Fifi Wickentower: What stopped the 'besotted' enchantment?

Ossy Portocarrero: They both had to pee?

Rosie Gray: ha. Do Ainu have to pee?

Fifi Wickentower: if years and eons passed . .

InyaRay Oktomica: never

Rosie Gray: :D

Ossy Portocarrero: .... so they peed while they stood there? thats just.... really romantic

Fifi Wickentower: I personally don't

InyaRay Oktomica: This tradtion started perhaps with dwarves

Ossy Portocarrero stares at Ted

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: :~)

Ossy Portocarrero: Wow.. he really does look like a really tall brother of Ael... thats amazing

AelKennyr Rhiano: Stop with the tall!

Ossy Portocarrero laughs. Make me

Shawn Daysleeper: He's taller

Fifi Wickentower: Ael is tall

Ossy Portocarrero: Ted is taller

Lihan Taifun: When did you take on a true physical body?

Rosie Gray: well I've been thinking that if Elwë fell in love with Melian by the sight of her, she must have taken on a physical body before that

Fifi Wickentower: I thought it was her song?

Ossy Portocarrero: Yes but he could see her, or he wouldnt be awe struck at the sight of her

AelKennyr Rhiano: What did draw Elwë?

Rosie Gray: yes, both I think

Fifi Wickentower: nods

Rosie Gray: They stared into each others eyes for an eternity

InyaRay Oktomica: She was drawn by what she saw in his eyes perhaps..

Lihan Taifun: It could have been a fana, an illusion-body, at first

Shawn Daysleeper: The song drew Elwë

Ossy Portocarrero: Elwë was drawn by her song and her sexy good looks

Rosie Gray: an illusion-body? interesting idea

Puma Kawanishi: The Ainur walked the face of Middle Earth in physical forms, long before Elwë saw Melian

Ossy Portocarrero: She was probably very 'alien' and we all know what an excitement 'exotic and foreign' can be

Rosie Gray: a projection!

Lihan Taifun: something for the Children to see, but not a complete, working, physical body. Ainur frequently only use illusion-bodies

Rosie Gray: indeed

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: Well.. Melian must have been watching Elwë for a long time. yes

Rosie Gray: but then she must have created a complete working physical body, or there would have been no Luthien

Puma Kawanishi: hmmm Yes, that's true, Rosie

Lihan Taifun: Obviously, by the time Luthien was born, she had the details worked out!

Ossy Portocarrero: Well she had centuries of staring to get the organs down right, while he was all googly eyed staring at her romantically. She was scanning him for organ construction and replicating them ... SHES A BORG, KILL HER!

AelKennyr Rhiano: lol

Ossy Portocarrero: no? ... just me?

Fifi Wickentower: umm - -wrong scenario?

Ossy Portocarrero: ok nvm. Ossy Portocarrero shrugs helplessly

Puma Kawanishi: What about Oromë and his hunters?

AelKennyr Rhiano: Who would Oromë would have patterned his form on...just from watching the elves? or did the Ainur remember something from the Song of Creation?

Lihan Taifun: hmmm

Puma Kawanishi: I would think they would remember the Song

Lihan Taifun: probably so

Ossy Portocarrero: yes

AelKennyr Rhiano: And the coming of the Children...that was part of the song...

Rosie Gray: oh yes

Rosie Gray: where were we?

Ossy Portocarrero: Borg?

Shawn Daysleeper: ya borg

InyaRay Oktomica: Deciding why you fell in love each with the other

Rosie Gray: right... it's a good question

InyaRay Oktomica: Tallnes, beauty and eye-gazing were mentioned

Rosie Gray: I don't think that was ever fully developed as a theme

AelKennyr Rhiano: In Christian mythologies...when an angel falls in love with a mortal...there are consequences for the angel....do you think there were for Melian, too? Things she did not anticipate?

Rosie Gray: oh yes I think so

Rosie Gray: She took on elven form for all the years they were together

AelKennyr Rhiano: Like his mortality?

Rosie Gray: which would mean giving up flying, for one thing!

Ossy Portocarrero: and gave some of her power to him for his ... rise so they could meet in the middle. And not just in the abdomen, I mean like.. peer power wise.

Rosie Gray: I am not sure about that Ossy

InyaRay Oktomica: Did she never leave at night as a spirit just to fly ?

Ossy Portocarrero: It was said he got Maiar like powers

AelKennyr Rhiano: yes, I do remember that

Ossy Portocarrero: ... and the only thing between that and elfdom was years of holding hands with you and staring.

Rosie Gray: hmmm I don't remember that

Ossy Portocarrero: .... soooo... I'd say.... P-Tow!

InyaRay Oktomica: it is most tragic to give up flying

Puma Kawanishi: What I remember about that was that it occurred because of the 'magic' she taught him

Rosie Gray: I would think so

AelKennyr Rhiano: "Great power Melian lent to Thingol..."

Rosie Gray: I took that phrase to mean that she used her powers for Thingol's benefit

InyaRay Oktomica: I would give up flying for Oromë

Rosie Gray: so I guess it's an interpretation

InyaRay Oktomica: so I understand .. .

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: Well..from what I remember Tolkien wanted some backround to his Luthien and Beren tale that he fancied for himself and his wife. I supposed he just worked the story back from there.

AelKennyr Rhiano: But it could also mean what Ossy was saying too

Rosie Gray: It could. I'd never thought of it that way myself

Ossy Portocarrero shrugs. Its just what I took from it.

Rosie Gray: In a few places it talkes about how Melian's gifts of foresight were used to try and help Thingol, although he didn't listen, always. And to tragic end

Ossy Portocarrero: I remember it saying almost clearly that he was granted power, Let me look one sec

Lihan Taifun: rather cryptic wording

Rosie Gray: He was already a powerful elven King, which is no small thing

AelKennyr Rhiano: What did happen to Elmo?

Rosie Gray: he's the one up in the right hand corner holding a Pepsi :D

AelKennyr Rhiano: hahaha

Ossy Portocarrero: ok here I found it

Rosie Gray: okay let's hear it

Ossy Portocarrero: and they were amazed; for fair and noble as he had been, now he appeared as it were a lord of the Maiar, his hair as grey silver, talest of the children of Iluvatar; and a high doom was before him

Maybe he just looked Maiar and I misunderstood.. o.o

AelKennyr Rhiano: I agree with Lihan...the wording is kinda vague.

Rosie Gray: yes it is vague

Ossy Portocarrero: It seems to imply he has now Maiar powers

Rosie Gray: So depends on your interpretation

Ossy Portocarrero: because later it says.. let me find it

Rosie Gray: Ted did you ever have thoughts of Elwë gaining some Ainu powers?

Ossy Portocarrero: ok found it

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: hmmmm... yes, in things like strategy; keeping the Sindar safe and dealing with others. hmm... good advice i guess

Lihan Taifun: You certainly had one of the safest kingdoms

AelKennyr Rhiano: Ossy, what did you find?

Ossy Portocarrero: Great power Melian lent to Thingol, who was himself great among the Eldar; for he alone of all the sindar had seen with his own eyes the trees in the day of their flowering and king though he was of Umanyar, ... blah blah blah... And of the love of Thingo and Melian there came into the world the fairest of all the children of Iluvatar that was or ever shall be

Ossy Portocarrero: I always took that to mean many children, but it could mean many descendants xD Thats why I said "a million kids".

Rosie Gray: nope, only one child that we know of

Fifi Wickentower: and it was the Light that he saw on Melian face that drew him to be entranced

Rosie Gray: although Phoenix seemed to find reference of another, a boy, in one of the forgotten tales

Lihan Taifun: or the (one) fairest of all elven children ever

Ossy Portocarrero: still... they keep talking about him being powerful and the line of your descendeants having power greater than all the elves

InyaRay Oktomica: To find love and create the most beautiful of children.. how wonderful

Rosie Gray: yes that's right... the line of Luthien Tinuviel

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: Exactly! well.... I always thought that the key was fear of change. Thingol didn't want Luthien to change so he put her in a treehouse. The Silmaril changed him to become more greedy.

Rosie Gray: yes! He was quite mesmerized by the Silmaril

AelKennyr Rhiano nods

Rosie Gray: and all that business about locking up the daughter was all about jealousy

InyaRay Oktomica: oh poor Luthian... locked up by whom she loved

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: yes. That's what makes it such a great tale. So much social significance :~)

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: Well.. slaying orcs in heaps is a good start but power of destruction does not make a kingdom safe from within or allow it to grow ;~)

InyaRay Oktomica: so wise king

Rosie Gray: indeed

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: yes. so the wisdom is the gift of foresight from Melain :~D

Fifi Wickentower: ahhh

Rosie Gray: That's how I read it. Because there are references to how she councils him not to take the Silmaril, that doom awaits. But he ignores her advice, and ends up dead. :-(

Lihan Taifun: So that was really his turning point

Fifi Wickentower: nods :(

Rosie Gray: poor Elwë

InyaRay Oktomica: Always the temptations

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: Well.. I always played it that Thingol was making a secret wedding gift for luthien but... the dwarves had other plans

Rosie Gray: ㋡

Fifi Wickentower: *grins*

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: But see! if he had just told everone instead of keeping it a secret it would have ended the story. hahah

Fifi Wickentower: would you say that your personal interpretations meshed well?

Rosie Gray: with each others?

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: mine with Rosie?

Fifi Wickentower: I mean between the two characters

Rosie Gray: We didn't really discuss it that much, to be honest!

Fifi Wickentower: Did it seem a natural flow?

Rosie Gray: oh yes, surprisingly, it did!

Fifi Wickentower: so you didn't sit down and analyze the roles?

Rosie Gray: No we didn't. Well, I analysed mine

AelKennyr Rhiano waits for Rosie to elaborate

Fifi Wickentower: or Ted to comment

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: Who wouln't love such romantic and sensational character to play? I think Thingol and Melian are the best of the Sil

Rosie Gray: I think in some ways it was a simple story... one seen the world over

InyaRay Oktomica: It has such drama

Rosie Gray: Wise woman tries to guide impatient husband. Rosie Gray winks

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: yes. has a bit of Midas in it. fantastic!

Rosie Gray: and fend off the bad guys in defense of her children, in this case the Sindar elves

Lihan Taifun: Midas? how so?

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: Yep. good stories have challenges. We know the heros and heroines overcome them, but how is what's important.

Rosie Gray: yes how so Midas Ted? Trying to turn everything to gold? or mithril

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: Oh just the parts about being greedy and asking too much.You know, be careful what you wish for

Rosie Gray: I always saw Elu as a somewhat dark character

AelKennyr Rhiano: how so?

Rosie Gray: mistrustful of strangers, jealous,: hoarding his gold and his treasure underground. Not evil, just... seeking his own purpose. And that Melian was there to try and guide him, to help the elves. Almost as if the Ainu had sent her on a mission

Lihan Taifun: I always laugh when people say elves can't live underground

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: Well.. I'd like to play it off that... maybe he was about to have a 500 year jubilee but... the dwarves had other plans. Oh. thats a great insight Rosie! ;~)

AelKennyr Rhiano: I wonder if he ever thought about the brother to whom it fell to guide the rest of the Teleri.

Rosie Gray: indeed! the sundering of the elves

AelKennyr Rhiano: I don't think they everysaw each other again.

Rosie Gray: I don't think so either

Shawn Daysleeper: No I don't think they saw each other again

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: sigh. yes seems like there was always something going on. Too busy to even write.

Rosie Gray: There where enemies to vanquish, and daughters to keep safe

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: or... Tolkien ran out of paper!

Rosie Gray: and then those pesky little humans showed up, with their big ideas

InyaRay Oktomica smiles

Lihan Taifun: And the daughters were just as opinionated as their mothers

Rosie Gray: :D

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: pesky humans....hahaha An elf and HUMAN! NEVER!

Rosie Gray: making off with the lovely Luthien!

Lihan Taifun: not like an Maia and an elf, not at all. But then Melian wasn't as strongly opposed to Beren as Elwë was

Rosie Gray: no she wasn't!

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: good point!

AelKennyr Rhiano nods

Rosie Gray: Must of been the case of nobody is good enough for my little girl, from Elu's point of view

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: exactly

AelKennyr Rhiano: typical daddy response

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: yep

AelKennyr Rhiano: I feel the same about Earwen

Rosie Gray: awh

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: :~)

Rosie Gray: See, mother's are much more practical, except in the case of their sons!

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: hahahaaaaa

Rosie Gray: just as well that Melian didn't have a son, I guess

AelKennyr Rhiano: What happened after Elwë...um... died?

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: Everything sort of went down hill.

Rosie Gray: The Sindar wandered I think

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: yes.

Shawn Daysleeper: yes

Rosie Gray: Menegroth was plundered, sacked

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: Dior tried to bring back the glory but... yes.

Rosie Gray: yes poor Dior.It was too much

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: It was indeed.

AelKennyr Rhiano: and Melian?

Rosie Gray: Melian drifted off back to Lorien with a broken heart, and Luthien's line went on

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: oh and I just read this; Aranrúth - King's Ire, Thingol's sword. In History of Middle-earth, Vol. XII, p.376 a stem, RUTH, is given with the sense "scar, score, furrow" It is worth noting that this was also the sword of the Kings of Númenor and very likely Ar-Pharazôn had it with him when he assaulted Valinor, where it was presumably buried with him.   Interesting

Lihan Taifun: So the sword was passed down, and came to the kings of Numenor?

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: yes.

Rosie Gray: It's a very romantic, and epic story

Lihan Taifun: That's amazing

Shawn Daysleeper: ya

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: yep. epic all around!

Shawn Daysleeper: I'm suprised Ar Pharazon would use an elvish sword

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: well.. it was a hell of a sword! Why not? haha

Shawn Daysleeper: I know, but i thought he hated all things elvish

Lihan Taifun: If he even knew its origins

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: yes. hmmmm... good point!

Shawn Daysleeper: ya it's an epic

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: I know quite a bit about that sword. I was making it :~) I made the sculptie and the texture and all the spellfire stuff but.. never had time to assemble it.

AelKennyr Rhiano: This was an excellent discussion tonight. I enjoyed it very much. Thank you two for being here...

Shawn Daysleeper: yes it was :)

AelKennyr Rhiano: What do we discuss next week?

Lihan Taifun: yes, what for next week?

Rosie Gray: How about Luthien? and Beren?

AelKennyr Rhiano: That would be cool

Shawn Daysleeper: yes sure

AelKennyr Rhiano: Would you all like to do that?

Lihan Taifun: Luthien? That is another dramatic story!

Rosie Gray: it is!

Shawn Daysleeper: yes

Rosie Gray: and Beren's story is too

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: yes. I'd be interested. I'll come if Im not too busy but...haha. indeed. always 10 or more projects going on.

Fifi Wickentower: We like to talk things out until we feel complete lol

AelKennyr Rhiano: So that would be like Chapter 10 in the Simarillion, if someone wanted to read up?

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: very good! I was going to leave an hour ago. I'm very glad I didn't

Drow, part 2

Tolkien Discussion Group

July 7, 2010

Topic: Drow - continued

Present:

AelKennyr Rhiano

Lihan Taifun

Fifi Wickentower

Shawn Daysleeper

InyaRay Oktomica

Summary:

Drow have a high birthrate, presumably because not all their children would survive.

According to Fifi's research, drow children receive a strict formal education. How exactly does educating the children benefit the decision-makers who would organize the school system?

In general, how much would any drow work for the good of the clan, if the personal benefit was indirect? How does a society of "totally self-centered" beings work out in practice?

We can't imagine any leader being able to unite several clans, not for any length of time. Though matrons might form temporary alliances, if there were a mutual advantage.

We know nothing about the "final fate" of drow after death. You wouldn't expect Lolth to provide a pleasant afterlife.

Fifi found a list of common drow foods, including spiders, mushrooms, crickets, fish, and lichen. Drow sometimes let their slaves eat each other, to save the expense of feeding them.

How organized could a drow fighting force be, if warriors could not trust their comrades?

I have edited out the subplot about Fifi's internet connection.

---

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Inya, you don't LOOK drow

InyaRay Oktomica smiles

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . for one thing, you are wearing way too much clothes

InyaRay Oktomica hmmm. InyaRay Oktomica decides to remain dressed

AelKennyr Rhiano blushes

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . thank you

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . While that may increase attendance dramatically, I think Tolkien Discussions should be dressed affairs:)

Fifi Wickentower: . . . *snps ingers . . . forgot I had a full row av in mycloset*drow

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . you decided to try being a closet drow?

InyaRay Oktomica: a whim of a Valar is that

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Giirl...it's the 4th Age...time to come out of the closet....snaps. AelKennyr Rhiano blushes....sorry...that kinda slipped out

Shawn Daysleeper laughs

Fifi Wickentower: . . . ad here we go agai withthe cht lag. arghh

Lihan Taifun tries to commisserate with Fifi, while giggling at Ael

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . heh heh

Fifi Wickentower: . . . the skin smelled unny *wrinkes nos

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Maybe it's the moth balls?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . what DO drow smell like?

Fifi Wickentower: . . . mayblood, and fungus, and fear sweat

InyaRay Oktomica: This drow smells like... "Spring" of course

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . You know, I hear blood is so hard to get out of an av

Shawn Daysleeper: laughs

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Those stains are the worse

InyaRay Oktomica: Depends on the method

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Teleri can soak in the ocean

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . true

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . where were we last week? bratty down children

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Whether drow clans were or were not organized

InyaRay Oktomica: I believe someone suggested killing them or such

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . they did?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I suppose not all children reach adulthood

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Well, the drow are more prolific than elves...

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Teenage humans are enough strain on adult humans, and adult humans have some self-restraint. Sometimes

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . and their culture is survival of the fittest

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . and I'm not sure drow would have any reason to be attached to their children

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Most of the reasons humans have wouldn't apply

InyaRay Oktomica: The would run in packs perhaps

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Well, until Victorian times, humans were not all that attached to their children.

InyaRay Oktomica: brat packs InyaRay Oktomica smiles

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . hahaha. The idea of a "childhood" as we conceive of it really started in the Victorian era.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I thought that was a myth, that earlier eras didn't care about their children

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . There was such a high incident of childhood mortality that parents kept an emotional distance

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . You are right. Children were not coddled.

InyaRay Oktomica: Yet one does not associate a 'fun' childhood with Victorian times

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . put to work, often as not

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . But with the rise of industrialism and capitalism, also came the concept of childhood, which was the priviledge of the rich

InyaRay Oktomica loves childhood... and intends to keep it

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Again, Lihan is correct.

Shawn Daysleeper nods

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . In agricultural societies, children were the old-age insurance, someone to support you. Not that drow children would support their aged parents!

InyaRay Oktomica: Were there old Drow ?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . not many, I bet

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I would think very few

InyaRay Oktomica: So, those who did exist would have been the most attractive, healthy , smart

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I think so.

InyaRay Oktomica: Seems unfair

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . The weak would not survive.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Drow wouldn't care much for our ideas of "fair"

Shawn Daysleeper: I agree

InyaRay Oktomica: always imbalances, to keep the world moving perhaps

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . But that does act as a balance when you consider elves. So we are each on opposite ends of the scale.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Drow have a higher birthrate because fewer of them survive? You know, I can imagine young drow running in packs, or gangs, whatever, because their parents might not support them very long

Fifi Wickentower: . . . since i a unle to atuallytypw aything. . .ere i some nfpoab

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . wow, that's bad, Fifi!

Fifi Wickentower: . . . It is seen as a good sign for a baby to feed on its mother until blood is drawn. Those babes that drink blood along with milk are thought to show the most promise. Children who learn to speak and act first are given most of the attention of their parents. A household takes responsibility for the young, however, and Drow mothers are not saddled with her children; the skills of a Drow female are too valuable to go to waste. Some Drow mothers have been known to tend duties for hours and face the squalling hunger of their unfed infants with anger.

Drow children are not coddled. They are raised together and sent to schools with high standards of conduct. Drow children are trained to compete with one another and to show no mercy. Some children do not survive the intense childhood games. Females are not given any advantages by instructors. They are taught that they must know how to beat the males on their own. During adolescence, females are given private instruction by elder Drow women in how to control m

brb

InyaRay Oktomica: ((you can type commetns into notepad and copy/paste those as well perhaps .. ))

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . good idea

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . The whole picture of drow childhood doesn't ring true for me

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Please explain

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . What Fifi just copied for us ... that seems more organized than I picture drow society

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Who pays the teachers? Why is being a teacher a valued profession? Why do drow care about educating their children?

Shawn Daysleeper: Because teachers are the masters?

InyaRay Oktomica: If it served a selfish end they might provide at least military style training

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . ok. What selfish end does it serve? That's what I'm not seeing

InyaRay Oktomica: Increaes in their power by increasing abiltiy to attack others. Though.. not sure they are organized in attacks really

Shawn Daysleeper: maybe through influence

InyaRay Oktomica: in that case training should be social in nature more than military

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I agree with Shawn

Shawn Daysleeper: influence is a powerful thing, especially if you are a teacher

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . also if the best and the strongest survive, then it is imperative to ensure the survival of your race by education

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . You lost me there

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . ok If you keep everyone uneducated... then how does your people survive and advance? If you, however, take the best and the brightest and educate them..

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . If everyone in your clan is your rival, do yoiu want them educated?

InyaRay Oktomica: They seem little concerned with group benefit and more with their own personal influence

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . to a degree?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I agree with Inya, is group survival even a priority?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Wouldn't it have to be...to some extenst? Man, this is tricky

InyaRay Oktomica: It is..

Shawn Daysleeper: It's kinda like Darwinism, drow society

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Partly because 100% self-centeredness doesn't work very well

InyaRay Oktomica: They must have some care for society at large to wish to shine in it, or even just control it

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I suppose a strong clan is better to live in than a dying clan

InyaRay Oktomica: Did clans join together ?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . voluntarily?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I can only imagine that if there were some overpowering need

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . The two matrons might cooperate if it were to both their advantage. Temporarily. I don't know if that counts as "joining"

AelKennyr Rhiano nods in agreement

Shawn Daysleeper: that sounds more like an allianceInyaRay Oktomica: and the clan may be an extended clan or family or tribe

InyaRay Oktomica: Was there a king or queen of the Drow ? or just the clans

Shawn Daysleeper: I don't think there was an overall queen of all drow

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I suppose that would depend on how powerful someone was, this year? It does seem improbable that someone could rule all the clans

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I can't imagine one maintaining such a position for long

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . not for long, certainly

Shawn Daysleeper nods in agreement

InyaRay Oktomica: was there a final fate of them ? or do they go on in general the same

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Does anyone know?

Shawn Daysleeper: I don't

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I do not , either

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . That might be between them and Llolth?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Does anyone know a drow expert?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Dominique knows some drow

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . So do you

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes. I know a little about them

Lihan Taifun {to Fifi}: Does your research say anything about the Final Fate of drow?

InyaRay Oktomica: Perhaps we shall send a small Drow bratty child to them

Fifi Wickentower: . . . hmmm . . the big FF

Fifi Wickentower: . . . i can serve in hat capacity ^^

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I found some stuff on LLoth

Lolth is a fickle and cruel goddess, believing that the drow race is best served by constantly struggling against each other. To this end, she tests some of her more exceptional followers to determine if they are worthy of her patronage -- and worthy of their lives. This test, known as the Test of Lolth, is given to any Lolth-worshiping drow upon reaching 6th level, although sometimes she waits until the subject is 7th or even 8th level.

Part of the test is about Loyalty. Usually Lolth plants thoughts in the mind of a friend, family member, or ally of the subject, leading him to believe he has been chosen for a special favor from the Spider Queen. (If the subject of the Test has no suitable friend, family member, or ally, Lolth chooses a cleric that has shown insufficient zeal.) In return, he must destroy one of "Lolth's enemies" (the drow actually being tested). Lolth instructs the dupe to ambush the target, slaying the enemy of the Spider Queen. When the target is attacked, she hears whispers from Lolth that she is being tested and the outcome of the battle determines whether she succeeds or fails. It is a test of loyalty whether or not the subject is willing to kill an ally if the Spider Queen tells her to do so.

The rest of the test is about power and resourcefulness -- whether or not the subject is strong and clever enough to defeat a powerful foe.

Fifi Wickentower: . . . all i have noticed about the Ff is oblivion . . no chance really at redemption

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Well, with Lolth, who wants to spend more time with her? Oblivion sounds like much more fun

Fifi Wickentower: . . . I did learn that drow find spider jerky very tasty

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Euuu

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Not much meat on a spider

Fifi Wickentower: . . . but spider jerky!!!

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . That sounds more like a snack, instead of a meal?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . We were wondering what drow eat

InyaRay Oktomica: ew

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Would they eat each other?

Fifi Wickentower: . . . here's some more info :))

General staples of the drow diet include:

• mushroom/fungus flour: used to make pastry and noodles
• mushroom-based tofu: a meat-substitute that is a staple of "middle-class" drow.
• lizard eggs
• rats: usually eaten only by the lower class, this is beneath the dignity of the wealthy and noble houses.
• snails
• lichen
• fish: grown in ponds in or near the drow cities, or netted from underground rivers.
• mollusks
• insects: particularly cave crickets. Usually served fried with a spicy mushroom sauce, or carmelized as a desert (along the lines of honey roast peanuts)
• Subterranean Puffer fish: a dangerous delicacy enjoyed by the drow. If prepared incorrectly it can prove fatal (this is simply a variation of the Japanese dish)

Shawn Daysleeper: Maybe spider jerkey

InyaRay Oktomica: my, sounds strangley appetizing

Fifi Wickentower: . . . well, they have a lot of slaves and it seems that they will allow the slaves to eat each other so they don't have to bother with feeding them

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Wouldn't want to run out of snails and rats to feed the slaves

InyaRay Oktomica: so so bad ... I will not wish to be this Drow

Shawn Daysleeper: Mushroom based tofu?

Fifi Wickentower: . . . Yes, drw rarely eat rats

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . You said upperclass drow rarely do

Fifi Wickentower: . . . i don't even want to try the skin on lol

Fifi Wickentower: . . . yes . . nobility and upperclass. i use the term loosely. nothing noble i can see. love is their first and greatest taboo

Shawn Daysleeper: So these are the masters and clan leaders?

Fifi Wickentower: . . . There is a hierarchy just like in regular elven groups

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Last week some people were saying the drow were "well disicplined" fighters. I would have thought they were too independent-minded for that -- each looking after his or her own skin

InyaRay Oktomica: but they are said to be intelligent, so may cooperate for a purpose

Fifi Wickentower: . . . The drow society follows the social pattern of lloith personality

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . You can cooperate a lot better if you aren't always worrying that your fellow warriors are going to stab you in the back. It really helps to be able to trust your comrades

InyaRay Oktomica: true

Fifi Wickentower: . . . Drow society is an extension of the goddess and the social order follows the pattern of her character. Lolth is the fickle mother at the heart of everything, the fat spider at the center of a vast web of Drow that feed her bloody thirst with belief and sacrifices.

Fifi Wickentower: . . . It is alien to us the very concepts by which they live

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . very alien

Fifi Wickentower: . . . So far i have learned more than i ever wanted to about them

InyaRay Oktomica: How is it that elven creatures becomes so different from their base

Fifi Wickentower: . . . I was never te least bit interested n d&d, and still am not :D

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I was not into D&D in College. I had a lot of friends who were.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . But now we have drow in the 4th Age

Fifi Wickentower: . . . they hd no start in tolkien so there base isn't from that wold at all

InyaRay Oktomica: that is nice to consider

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes, we do have drow

Fifi Wickentower: . . . i've known ppl too, just not my personal thing

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . There is an an aspect of Drow society we have not considerd tonight: slavery

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . that sounds very drow

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Slavery is second nature to the drow mindset; few dark elves can imagine life without slaves. Drow believe they have a manifest destiny as the best and strongest of all the races. It only follows that other races must serve them or become extinct.

Drow treat slaves with no respect, using and abusing them at will. To most surface slavers, a slave is a valuable trade-good, not to be damaged more than is necessary. To most drow, a slave is but a pair of hands, without limits that need be thought of; if it is killed, there are a million replacements to be had.

As such, in drow society, slaves can be killed for the smallest slight, for pleasure, or out of spite. Maiming and scarring, both physical and emotional, is another form of punishment (and amusement) commonly meted out upon slaves.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Sounds like drow must have an infinte supply of cheap replacement slaves

Fifi Wickentower: . . . that is another taboo . . . Equality: Drow may not treat other races as equals at any time, unless they are doing so as a means of deception. A Drow must never think that other races are equal to their own. In some Vhaeraunian encampments, however, this taboo is altered: all elves are superior, and non-elves, including half-elves, are to be disdained.

InyaRay Oktomica: If a drow with a slave appears in my garden.. I shall eject the drow and let the slave be free

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . What is " Vhaeraunian"?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I was about to ask that, too?

Fifi Wickentower: . . . a group like teleri

Shawn Daysleeper: I'm glad I'm not a drow

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . me, too

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . How did the drow get into your garden? You live in the Blessed Lands

InyaRay Oktomica: Many things get into my gardens

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . That is a good question...

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . They're not supposed to get into your garden

InyaRay Oktomica: If a tree there can be withered.. so to may appear a Drow

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . perhaps the nightmare tears? they open portals

InyaRay Oktomica: yes, so bad

InyaRay Oktomica: It is in case a Drow is listening... and has a slave... they will know what to expect

Shawn Daysleeper: I wouldn't rp a drow, not sure I even could, they sound so cruel

Fifi Wickentower: . . . nor I

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yeah

InyaRay Oktomica: The limit was knowing they allow slaves to eat one another if no food. I will save all Drow slaves if I may

Shawn Daysleeper: sounds worse than orc even

Fifi Wickentower: . . . lovely

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . or just to save expenses

Fifi Wickentower: . . . they thrives on pain, torture, cruelty

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . superiority

Fifi Wickentower: . . . mental torture as much as an other kind also

InyaRay Oktomica: yes. For each poor slave killed.. I would name a flower

Fifi Wickentower: . . . nice Inya :)

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . oh, Inya, that is so sweet

InyaRay Oktomica: yet it does not save them :( Down with Drow

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . At least it honors their existence

InyaRay Oktomica: true :)

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I wonder why Tolkien did not include the drow in his world. They would have been a great analogy for the concept of Arayan supremacy

Fifi Wickentower: . . . because he was wise and good :D smiles sweetly

Fifi Wickentower: . . . let me ust ad this it . .. Elves and half-elves are almost always considered special slaves and subjected to the harshest treatments, stemming from Drow relations with their surface cousins. The Drow rejoice in obtaining slaves of the more rare elven races, especially the nearly extinct

InyaRay Oktomica: Tolkien was right not to include them. so bad

Shawn Daysleeper: Well, I think we answered the question why there is no drow in Tolkein's works

AelKennyr Rhiano shudders. EEP

Fifi Wickentower: . . . yes please, i' need a shwer afer allthis ceepy stuff hehehe

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . You'd think the drow economy would go broke, buying new slaves

Fifi Wickentower: . . . buy??? buy???? h!!! mostly the humanoid rces . they breed fast enough to replace themselves

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . What will we talk about next week?

Shawn Daysleeper: not drow

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Agreed! We could do Chapter 4 in the Sil....

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . What is Chapter 4?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Thingol and Melian. That would be upbeat

Shawn Daysleeper: Ya sounds good

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . That sounds harmless enough

Fifi Wickentower: . . . Maybe Melian would cme

InyaRay Oktomica: Wish Rosie could be here, yes

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . She might come

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Rosie might

Fifi Wickentower: . . . I could ask Thingol, but probably wouldn't

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . That would be cool

Fifi Wickentower: . . . Let's ask her

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . no predicting what Thingol would do

Fifi Wickentower: . . . I'll ask him too. But no hold breath