Telepathy - Part 2

Present:

Siwan Sandalwood     

Lihan Taifun                

Shawn Daysleeper      

lawrence Blackbart     

Cinnamon Raymaker 

Hojo Warf                    

Fifi Wickentower        

Summary:

We established last week that telepathic communication needed the consent of both the sender and the receiver. What, then, of Galadriel “testing” the Fellowship? The hobbits, at least, had no intention to communicate with her, and were uncomfortable. But was what Galadriel did so different from making a suggestion out loud, and reading the reaction on their faces?

What does that experience with Galadriel tell us about hobbits' aptitude for telepathy? Maybe only that they can communicate if a powerful telepath (like Galadriel) initiates the communication. Although Tolkien does mention that Humans in extreme stress can sometimes send a vague telepathic image to someone emotionally close to them.

Other than those stress situations, are there any Tolkien examples of mental communication at a distance? The only one we can recall is the “voice” telling Frodo on Amon Law to “take off the Ring”. (And that might not be a typical example, since the One Ring, and probably one of the Three Rings, was involved.)

How much could Sauron communicate mentally, at a distance, with the Nazgul? That would have been very convenient for him, if he could do it. How much was Sauron directly controlling the orcs? The moment at the final battle where all the armies of Mordor stop, because Sauron is distracted, seems inconsistent with what we have previously seen of orcs. Orcs' Elvish origins should make them more difficult to directly control.

Dragons in roleplaying games can often communicate telepathically with each other. We don't know of any Tolkien examples where more than one dragon is in a story. Humans (Turin) or hobbits (Bilbo) who look a dragon straight in the eye are susceptible to several “dragon spells”: being unable to move, willingness to tell information, willingness to believe what the dragon says, amnesia.

{Siwan's comments removed at her request 6/18/2011}

Lihan Taifun:                 so, we had established that Elves -- at least some of the Noldor elves -- and all the Ainur could use telepathy. Also that Tolkien didn't seem to know a lot about real-life telepathy, and was making up his own rules. What else did we have from last week -- The "telepathy" required consent from both sender and receiver, and only communicated the immediate thought in the sender's mind at that moment

lawrence Blackbart:      the differences between mind reading and telepathy

Lihan Taifun:                 right, no one could "read" all your thoughts and memories , only what you were thinking about at that moment

lawrence Blackbart:      yes

Shawn Daysleeper:       nods

Lihan Taifun:                 and it was forbidden for an Ainu to do even that by force, it had to be voluntary. So -- what about Galadriel "testing" the Fellowship? was that voluntary?

{Several arrivals. Greetings}

Lihan Taifun:                 Hojo, the question on the table is: if telepathic communication has to be voluntary on both sides, what about Galadriel "testing" the Fellowship? Was that voluntary?

Siwan Sandalwood:      •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Hojo Warf:                     She spoke into their minds without permission truly. I'm not sure her information about them was mindreading though... more likely her wisdom and keen perception.

lawrence Blackbart:      i agree

Siwan Sandalwood:      •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Hojo Warf:                     I don't ask permission to speak to you with my mouth. Why should I ask to speak to you with my mind?

lawrence Blackbart:      good point

Hojo Warf:                     Its only if she is retrieving information from their thoughts that there would be an invasion of privacy.

Lihan Taifun:                 but you do have the ability to shut your mouth when you don't want to communicate

Siwan Sandalwood:     •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

lawrence Blackbart:      i would be rather freaked out lol

Siwan Sandalwood:      •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Lihan Taifun:                 as I think the hobbits were freaked out

Hojo Warf:                     and if she senses their turmoil or moods its no different than if she read it in their faces.

lawrence Blackbart:      oh yes

Siwan Sandalwood:      •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Lihan Taifun:                 the hobbits reacted as though they thought she was picking up more information than they wanted to reveal

Shawn Daysleeper:       so it seems that the hobbits are capable of telepathy?

Lihan Taifun:                 at least if the other person in the conversation is a powerful telepath?

lawrence Blackbart:      from what i gathered, it s possible to participate in telepathic communication that has already been established for them, and that they are unable to initiate a link

lawrence Blackbart:      like a telephone with no dial numbers

Lihan Taifun:                 that would be the way I read it. Although, as someone -- maybe Ael -- pointed out last week, Humans sometimes in extreme stress could send a telepathic message to someone emotionally close to them

lawrence Blackbart:      ah yes

Lihan Taifun:                 not really a clear verbal message, maybe, but something

Siwan Sandalwood:      •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

lawrence Blackbart:      yep

Lihan Taifun:                 outside of those stress-induced episodes, do we know of any Tolkien examples of telepathy at a distance?

lawrence Blackbart:      no examples, no

Siwan Sandalwood:      •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Lihan Taifun:                 oh, hmmm, yes .... somewhat mysterious

Siwan Sandalwood:      •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Lihan Taifun:                 (except the movies diverge more and more from the books) (hope seeing the movie first doesn't ruin the books for you)

lawrence Blackbart:      oh isn't that an understatement Lihan lol

Siwan Sandalwood:     •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Lihan Taifun:                 the Good Guys still win

Siwan Sandalwood:      •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Lihan Taifun:                 and the Ring is destroyed in pretty much the same way as in the movie, and there is a REAL ending that ties up the theme of the books properly

Siwan Sandalwood:      •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Lihan Taifun:                 because in the books, the story is about the hobbits

Siwan Sandalwood:      •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Lihan Taifun:                 lol, I don't think much of the telepathy will involve spoilers

Siwan Sandalwood:     •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Lihan Taifun:                 where were we, anyway? with telepathy?

lawrence Blackbart:      ummm

Siwan Sandalwood:      •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Lihan Taifun:                 [19:39] Siwan Sandalwood:      •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

lawrence Blackbart:      hmm

Siwan Sandalwood:      •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

lawrence Blackbart:      interesting point. it could be that some human traits lingered

Siwan Sandalwood:     •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Lihan Taifun:                 I don't think so. A although, there is a moment at the very end, when Sauron is totally distracted, and it says all the armies of Mordor just stop, because he isn't directing them, which doesn't really fit with anything else that has happened

Siwan Sandalwood:      •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

lawrence Blackbart:      mind control?

Lihan Taifun:                 and yet nothing before that point indicates that he is doing that. The orcs we meet seem pretty sentient, carrying out orders in the ordinary way

{minor distraction}

Lihan Taifun:                 the topic is now whether Sauron is using mind-control on his armies, and how much he can communicate with the Nazgul

Siwan Sandalwood:      •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Hojo Warf:                     I see the nazgul as aspects of himself. He doesn't so much order them around as uses them the way we use our own limbs. They are an extension of himself.

Cinnamon Raymaker:  is it true that the orcs were elves changed by Melkor, if this is so would they not be open to suggestion

Siwan Sandalwood:      •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Hojo Warf:                     Orcs are more just influenced by his will but not directly controlled. The goblins in Moria exist independantly of him it would seem.

Cinnamon Raymaker:  kind of like worker drones

Siwan Sandalwood:      •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Lihan Taifun:                 I always thought goblins were a lesser breed of orcs

Hojo Warf:                     I agree with Lihan

Siwan Sandalwood:      •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Cinnamon Raymaker:  "transformed into a Goblin race of slaves", from elves

lawrence Blackbart:      yep

Siwan Sandalwood:      •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Hojo Warf:                     Uruk in the dark speech I believe, or is that elvish?

Siwan Sandalwood:      •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

lawrence Blackbart:      oh?

Lihan Taifun:                 Tolkien would love being able to use an Old English word

Cinnamon Raymaker:  ehee a devouring monster ;P

Siwan Sandalwood:      •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Lihan Taifun:                 heh heh

lawrence Blackbart:      interesting

Hojo Warf:                     yes and everything else is treants and halflings

Cinnamon Raymaker:  biggest worry about an orc army - they can't think on their feet - they can only follow orders,concentration folds so does the force

Lihan Taifun:                 so they often have a Human, or some other race for a boss

lawrence Blackbart:      indeed

Siwan Sandalwood:      •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

lawrence Blackbart:      more like robots

Cinnamon Raymaker nods

Siwan Sandalwood:      •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Lihan Taifun:                 or, left to their own devices for very long, they get distracted by their own interests, and kinda forget what Sauron was interested in -- "let's just eat the prisoners"

Cinnamon Raymaker:  apparently they were able to reduce men to the same level of mind or habits in a few generations

Hojo Warf:                     They seem to revert to a barbarian tribal mentality

Cinnamon Raymaker:  then mate them with orcs to improve the breed

lawrence Blackbart:      eew

Lihan Taifun:                 oh, you mean revert the humans to a barbarian tribal mentality .... I was going to say, orcs never got above that

Siwan Sandalwood:      •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

lawrence Blackbart:      any way ive been thinking, and since we are discussing communications, now would be a good time to bring it up, but how did dragons communicate? spoken word or telepathicly?

Hojo Warf:                     Dragons speaking.. thats in ... oh what was it...

Cinnamon Raymaker:  i would say dragons communicate telepathically, with each other hehehe

lawrence Blackbart:      hmm -- and with humans or elves??

Cinnamon Raymaker:  not sure

Hojo Warf:                     its in the books. just trying to remember which one.

Lihan Taifun:                 dragon communication? Bilbo and Smaug?

Hojo Warf:                     no one of the lost tales... what was I reading lol

Lihan Taifun:                 Turin and Glaurung?

Hojo Warf:                     Yes, Turin, found the book, The Children of Turin

Lihan Taifun:                 Glaurung did seem to have some powers

lawrence Blackbart:      yep

Hojo Warf:                     bah can't data mine a paperback...

Cinnamon Raymaker chuckles. names in the index?

lawrence Blackbart:      lol

Hojo Warf:                     he speaks in the book and it is described. I just don't remember accurately enough and I don't want to misquote.

Lihan Taifun:                 I found the part where he freezes Turin, and it is described as a sort of spell, that Turin believes everyhtin Glaurung tells him

Hojo Warf:                     gasping he spoke; (speaking to Niniel)

Lihan Taifun:                 and then he puts a spell of forgetfulness on Nienor

lawrence Blackbart:      so it is spoken words when talking to humans or elves and telepathy with each other?

Lihan Taifun:                 I am seeing spoken words, with the humans, although he has several types of "dragon spells" for anyone who looks him straight in the eye

Hojo Warf:                     oops the book is the children of Hurin

lawrence Blackbart:      ah ok

Lihan Taifun:                 do we know dragons communicate telepathically with each other?

lawrence Blackbart:      havnt read it anywhere

Cinnamon Raymaker:  only in fantasy rp groups, haven't read anything from tolkien that I can remember

Lihan Taifun:                 I dont' remember Tolkien ever having more than one dragon in a scene

Cinnamon Raymaker nods

Shawn Daysleeper:       agree

Lihan Taifun:                 the dragons have important parts, but there aren't many of them

lawrence Blackbart:      yep

Siwan Sandalwood:      •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Lihan Taifun:                 yes, and we never do hear much about the origins of dragons

Hojo Warf:                     Mighty reptilian creatures who ranked among the most feared of the servants of the Dark Lord. Of the origins of dragons, no tale tells; the first of them to be seen was Glaurung, Father of Dragons, who issued from Angband in the middle of the First Age. After Glaurung came many others to strike fear into Elves and Men for the next three ages.

Dragons have powers of intelligence and speech, and many are also able to cast the dragon-spell, a bewildering confusion that affects any who gaze into the eye of the creature.

the encyclopedia of arda

lawrence Blackbart:      ah yes the dragon spell

{ Shawn leaves. Farewells.}

lawrence Blackbart:      the spell that encourages the effected to expose more than what is required from a question, often applied by the dragon when the dragon is questioning, or when looking into the eyes of the dragon

Siwan Sandalwood •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

lawrence Blackbart:      :P

Lihan Taifun:                 although Glauring was also using "dragon spells" to keep his victim from moving, to induce amnesia, and to cause his victim to believe what he was told. yep, lawrence, no one is going to want to look you in the eye

lawrence Blackbart:      hehe lawrence Blackbart beams at Lihan

Siwan Sandalwood:      •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Cinnamon Raymaker:  hehehe haven't met Canelle yet have you? Cinnamon Raymaker giggles

Lihan Taifun:                 Canelle looks dragons in the eye?

Cinnamon Raymaker:  she is a dragon LOL

lawrence Blackbart:      ah i see

Cinnamon Raymaker:  not in this rp of course ;P

Lihan Taifun:                 what do we want to discuss next week?

{Discussion of the Quenya Language lessons, which will be at 6 pm Tuesdays, starting next week.}

Lihan Taifun:                 ok, then, back to next week's topic. no favorite topics?

lawrence Blackbart:      hmm

Siwan Sandalwood:      •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Hojo Warf:                     I can usually think of them but my brain is tired tonight :3

Siwan Sandalwood:      •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Lihan Taifun:                 more about what about elves?

Siwan Sandalwood:      •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Fifi Wickentower:         we haven't talked about that for a long time . . there is nothing too basic :)

Siwan Sandalwood:      •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Lihan Taifun:                 we've discussed that, but not recently

Siwan Sandalwood:      •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Lihan Taifun:                 yes, look on the sidebar on the right, there is a link to the page of Topics. BY TOPIC, it says. that has the list of all the old ones

Siwan Sandalwood:     •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Lihan Taifun:                 not elves, but ainur spirits

Siwan Sandalwood:      •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Fifi Wickentower:         mhm

Lihan Taifun:                 and their assisting spirits

Siwan Sandalwood:      •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Lihan Taifun:                 I once heard that he briefly mentioned some beings that sure sounded like merfolk, only in passing, and I never saw the original reference

Siwan Sandalwood:      •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Telepathy

Present:

Sunshine Hanfoi

Lihan Taifun

Fifi Wickentower

AelKennyr Rhiano

Shawn Daysleeper

lawrence Blackbart

Summary:

Elves, especially the Older ones, had some capacity for mental communication. Humans did not, or perhaps could only send brief messages in situations of great distress, to persons to whom they were emotionally close.

It is unclear whether there is a distance limit to Elvish mental communication. Most examples are between people who are within speaking distance.

The palantiri were artificial aids that allowed communication at great distance, even for the unskilled and Humans.

In Tolkien's scheme, this mental communication required willingness from both parties (except in the case of Morgoth, who used forbidden force). A person could perceive only the current thought that the other person wanted to transmit – not everything in the other person's mind or memories.

What then can be said for Galadriel “testing” the Companions? That seems rather non-consensual.

While Morgoth (and Sauron) probably did have some mind-control powers over their minions, that isn't exactly the same as this form of telepathy.

We suspect that some of us know more about the “real world” operation of telepathy than Tolkien did, so telepathy in the Tolkien universe may differ from what one would expect.

Probably the telepathic talent diminished faster among Elves in MiddleEarth than among Elves in the West.

Lihan Taifun:            I didn't sent out any reading material on telepathy, did I?

{Distribute reading material 1 – 2 – 3}

{Greetings for new person Sunshine}

Lihan Taifun:             and then, after the notecards were written, I found one even better reference

AelKennyr Rhiano:   well let's get started...which notecard first, Lihan?

Lihan Taifun:             “Often after the hobbits were wrapped in sleep they [Celeborn, Galadriel, Gandalf, and Elrond] would sit together under the stars, recalling the ages that were gone and all their joys and labours in the world, or holding council, concerning the days to come. If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, and it would have seemed to him only that he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro.”

The Return of the King, "Many Partings"

how about that first?

Shawn Daysleeper:   so it seems that the "older" elves can use telepathy, and can talk to maia thru telepathy

Lihan Taifun:             yes

Sunshine Hanfoi:      when you say telepathy..do you mean speaking mind to mind?

Fifi Wickentower:     yes

Sunshine Hanfoi:      I see reference to the Palantir. thank you

Lihan Taifun:             the palantir seem to enhance the ability, and even work for the unskilled

Fifi Wickentower:     there seems to be certain instances or question about whether it was used or always necessary

Lihan Taifun:             whether the palantiri were necessary, or telepathy?

Fifi Wickentower:     the palantir

Sunshine Hanfoi:      in the one card, and I am on the third now, it seems many references to mechanisms or devices that “ assisted some sort of "communication" from afar was why I was seeking clarity

Lihan Taifun:             there do seem to be some devices that enhance perception or communication, although some elves can do it without aids

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Why was the palantir even necessary?

Shawn Daysleeper:   the seeing stones were a gift to men, eh? to the faithful

Lihan Taifun:             I wonder if there is a distance limit on direct telepathy?

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Do Men have telepathy?

Shawn Daysleeper:   it didn't seem like men had telepathy

Lihan Taifun:             wouldn't it have been useful for Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel to have been able to consult earlier? when they were not all together?

Sunshine Hanfoi:      I understood the Palintir were created by Feanor?

Lihan Taifun:             by Feanor, yes

Sunshine Hanfoi listens and works to finish this last page

Shawn Daysleeper:   oh ok

Lihan Taifun:             that is another thing, it isn't clear that ALL elves have skill at mental communication, and probably none at seeing at a distance

Sunshine Hanfoi:      If the Valar could not read the minds of the Children, an only Melkor broke this "rule" perhaps telepathy is a latent gift that arose as a way to try to thwart his power over them. usually I hear the idea of telepathy being used in a negative way

Lihan Taifun:             negative how?

Sunshine Hanfoi:      to control, deceive, coherce, dominate

AelKennyr Rhiano:   They could read minds if the mind were open to them, but they could not force a Child of Illuvatar to open their mind.

Fifi Wickentower:     in telepathy there is sending and receiving, there is broadband and one on one

Sunshine Hanfoi is quiet

Fifi Wickentower:     generally one excells more as a sender and another will be stronger at receiving

AelKennyr Rhiano:   The minds of the Children were not open to the Valar (except by free will of the Children), and could not be invaded or violated by the Valar except with disastrous consequences: their breaking and enslaving, and the substitution in them of the dominating Vala as a God in place of Eru.

Shawn Daysleeper:   maybe Melkor used telepathy to control his armies

Fifi Wickentower:     telepathy shouln't be confused with mindreading, imo. .which does or has negative connotations

Lihan Taifun:             I had the impression that -- except for Melkor using force -- the "telepathy" always required both parties to voluntarily want to communicate

AelKennyr Rhiano:   yes, me, too, but please clarify, Fifi?

Fifi Wickentower:     telepathy is less a way to control . . not really a mind control tool

lawrence Blackbart:  more of a communication tool

Fifi Wickentower:     melkor could well be controlling through various mind control techniques

Shawn Daysleeper:   so mind control does not count as telepathy?

Lihan Taifun:             I would say not all "telepathy" is even attempting to "mind control"

AelKennyr Rhiano:   yes, I'm confused.

lawrence Blackbart:  not entirely, they use similar techniques, however have different uses

Fifi Wickentower:     i don't think so . . .mind control would happen after a period of 'training' or prepping . . through the use of drugs/magic/fear

AelKennyr Rhiano:   no, i mean about mindreading and telepathy not being the same thing.

Lihan Taifun:             for one thing, Tolkien makes it pretty clear in one of those notecards that telepathy only communicates what the "sender" is thinking about sending

Fifi Wickentower:     the ability to send and recieve thoughts is the basic definition of telepathy

lawrence Blackbart:  indeed

Lihan Taifun:             so, no way anyone can detect something the other person isn't currently thinking about

Fifi Wickentower:     yes

Lihan Taifun:             and -- without using forbidden force -- you can't detect a thought the other person doesn't want to send

AelKennyr Rhiano:   and with mind reading they could detect more?

lawrence Blackbart:  yes, if force were used that would be considered mind reading... am i correct?

Shawn Daysleeper:   and it could be that the other does not know what the sender is thinking if the sender is not in the will to transmute his thoughts

Fifi Wickentower:     we see it current life . . ppl who are gifted in broadband telepathy are succesful with 'reading' the moods of groups of ppl . . like in radio, for instance. we have all experienced it when the phone rings and you know it will a moment before it does. or you were thinking of someone and out of the blue you see them or they make contact in some way

lawrence Blackbart:  true

AelKennyr Rhiano listens

Fifi Wickentower:     if you use a focus point . . a palantir, a crystal ball, a bowl of water . . it serves to focus the mortal/conscious mind and allow the higher mind to operate and be heard'

AelKennyr Rhiano:   So, it is a tool to augment.

Fifi Wickentower:     yes. so it would only make sense that the high elves would have a certain amount of natural telepathic talent

Lihan Taifun:             would you consider it "mind reading" to detect something that the other person knows, but isn't thinking about at that moment?

AelKennyr Rhiano:   because it is "in" their mind?

Fifi Wickentower:     it is energy . .all thoughts are energy . .subtle energy but still readable

AelKennyr Rhiano:   So if it exists, it is possible to be detected? Energy is neither created nor destroyed.

Fifi Wickentower:     yes . .and there are scientists currently who have said that have have done just that

lawrence Blackbart:  it can only transformed

AelKennyr Rhiano nods

Fifi Wickentower:     yes . . if it exists, it can be detected . . just consider germs and auric fields for 2 examples

lawrence Blackbart:  its simply a matter of building a device to detect it

Fifi Wickentower:     that's science for ya! always needing to bring it to the purely material, measurable world

lawrence Blackbart:  yep :)

Fifi Wickentower:     smiles

Lihan Taifun:             well, I think having a way to move a computer cursor by brainwaves (which they now have) is going to be a big help for paralyzed people

Fifi Wickentower:     oh yes!!!

lawrence Blackbart nod nods

AelKennyr Rhiano:   The implicatons are astounding

Fifi Wickentower:     the power of the mind is astonishing :)

Shawn Daysleeper:   nods

Lihan Taifun:             I wasn't expecting that in my lifetime

Lihan Taifun:             so, do we understand the difference between "telepathy" and "mind reading"?

AelKennyr Rhiano blushes maybe?

lawrence Blackbart:  telepathy is a means of communication, where as mind reading is a way of forcefully extracting information. am i correct?

Shawn Daysleeper:   telepathy is active while mind reading involves a passive victim?

lawrence Blackbart:  that too

AelKennyr Rhiano:   So is mind reading always forceful?

Shawn Daysleeper:   well, if it isn't would it be telepathy?

Lihan Taifun:             telepathy is active on both people's parts?

Fifi Wickentower:     i doubt it could always be forceful. it may actually come down to semantics . . . telepathy being a transfer of info without using the 5 senses, and telepathy has a sending and receiving element. mind reading is more i tell you what you are thinking . . like a mentalist

Lihan Taifun:             so, one limit to the telepathy, in Tolkien's universe, is that both parties have to be intending to communicate

AelKennyr Rhiano listens

lawrence Blackbart:  indeed

Lihan Taifun:             I haven't found any explicit mention of a distance limit, but it seems like most examples -- without a palantir -- are pretty close range

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Would the emotional state of the sender play a factor? The immediacy of their need to communicate?

Lihan Taifun:             hmmm, I just said both parties had to be intending to communicate -- but what about Galadriel "testing" the companions?

AelKennyr Rhiano:   um....

lawrence Blackbart:  hmmm what if ... what if someone was reading another persons mind who was at the same time actively conversion with someone else using telepathy? Would the mind reader be able to tap into that telepathic communication?

Fifi Wickentower:     probably . .depends how 'clear' the person is

AelKennyr Rhiano:   wow

lawrence Blackbart nods

AelKennyr Rhiano:   I guess what I was saying was that if Fifi were physically far from me, my ability to communicate with her, would it not depend in a large part with how important I perceive it was to contact her?

Lihan Taifun:             to Ael, I think it probably would

Fifi Wickentower:     distance means nothing

AelKennyr Rhiano:   it doesn't?

lawrence Blackbart:  ah yea true as it is simply energy

AelKennyr Rhiano:   the palantir is not to help cover distance but to amplify the strength of hte thought so it can be heard clearly?

Lihan Taifun:             I think I remember somewhere that even humans could occasionally -- in extreme distress -- send a message to someone emotionally close to them

Fifi Wickentower:     if you need to get ahold of me . .you would focus, perhaps visualize me and then with your heart 'send' the thought, and telepathy is more a world of image rather than words

Lihan Taifun:             Fifi, are you talking about the Tolkien universe, or this universe?

Fifi Wickentower:     telepathy is telepathy

Lihan Taifun:             I think you might know more about how it works than Tolkien did

Fifi Wickentower giggles

lawrence Blackbart:  haha

AelKennyr Rhiano:   I was going to say, in the real world, I agree with Fifi, but in Tolkien's literary world, that would depend upon his understanding of it, I think?

Fifi Wickentower:     it's the 4th age after all :)

AelKennyr Rhiano:   YES!

lawrence Blackbart:  indeed

Fifi Wickentower:     yes . . i think i agree with that ael . . it can only go as far as his understanding

AelKennyr Rhiano:   In reading all these notecards, I get the feeling that telepathy diminished in the middle earth elves while it did not in the Elves living in the WEst?

Fifi Wickentower:     and it can seem like magic to ppl who don't understand; once again . . the further they moved from the origin of the Children and thus Source . . the more diminished the gifts became

Lihan Taifun:             we hear about Galadriel using telepathy, but never Legolas

AelKennyr Rhiano:   so the palantir would be of great importance to them.

lawrence Blackbart:  ooh yes most deffinately

Lihan Taifun:             even a human or a hobbit can use a palantir, it takes very little skill, and no innate talent

Fifi Wickentower:     like a telephone . . or a crystal set

AelKennyr Rhiano nods

Lihan Taifun:             like that, yes

AelKennyr Rhiano:   I hope we continue this discussion next week

Lihan Taifun:             we could, if people wanted to

AelKennyr Rhiano:   I think this is a very deep subject, not easily covered in one night

lawrence Blackbart:  it is a very interesting topic :)

Fifi Wickentower:     fine with me *smiles*

Lihan Taifun:             now you can read the notecards at your leisure, and think about them

AelKennyr Rhiano:   nod nod nod, whew, yay

Fifi Wickentower:     yes . . . .thank you very much Lihan for sharing that info :)

Lihan Taifun:             and of course how it affects the roleplay -- telepathy is very tricky in roleplay

AelKennyr Rhiano:   yes! we should have a rp discussion on that

Fifi Wickentower:     fraught with peril i should think . . .ripe for the basic godmod

Lihan Taifun:             very much so

AelKennyr Rhiano:   yes

lawrence Blackbart:  :P

AelKennyr Rhiano:   a very abused rp tactic.

Lihan Taifun:             and so far none of the Ainur have abused telepathy

AelKennyr Rhiano:   No, actually, they have been very careful

Lihan Taifun:             but eventually the question is likely to come up