Minas Tirith

 
-->Timelinefor Minas Tirith (formerly called Minas Anor), and related events in the North and South Kingdoms

At the fall of Númenor (late Second Age), Elendil, his two sons Isildur and Anárion, and some followers, escaped by ship to Middle-Earth. They brought with them the Seven Seeing Stones, and a seedling of the White Tree, which was a gift from the Teleri to the Númenoreans.

Elendil and his followers built the cities of Minas Anor (Tower of the Sun), Minas Ithil (Tower of the Moon), and Osgiliath (Fortress of the Stars) in the south, and the city of Annúminas in the north. Elendil ruled in the North Kingdom (Arnor), at Annúminas; his sons Isildur and Anárion shared the rule of the South Kingdom (Gondor), from the capital at Osgiliath.

Second Age 3441(= Third Age 1)     Elendil dies. Isildur moves to the North to take his father's place, leaving his brother Anárion ruling the south.

Third Age ~492 King Ostoher (of the South Kingdom) rebuilds Minas Anor.

~1100   Height of the power of the South Kingdom.

1437       Osgiliath partly destroyed in civil war.

1636      Plague ravages Gondor.

~1800   King Tarondor moves the seat of government from partly-ruined Osgiliath to Minas Anor.

1944      King Ondoher and both his sons are killed in battle. “Arvedui of the North-kingdom claimed the crown of Gondor, as the direct descendant of Isildur, and as the husband of Fíriel, only surviving child of Ondoher.” The Council of Gondor rejected the claim, and the crown went to the general of the army, who was “of the royal house.”

1974      The Witch King of Angmar destroys the North Kingdom, and shortly after is defeated and retreats to Mordor.

1975      Arvedui, last king of the North, dies. His descendants take refuge in Rivendell, and continue the royal line as Chieftains of the Dúnedain.

2000      The Nazgûl besiege Minas Ithil.

2002      The Nazgûl capture Minas Ithil, take its palantir, and rename the city Minas Morgul.

2043      Minas Anor is renamed Minas Tirith, Tower of Guard.

2050      King Eärnur accepts the “King of Minas Morgul's” challenge to single combat, and is never seen again. His Steward Mardil rules in the King's name. To prevent any civil war, no new king is crowned, and Stewards continue to rule.

2655      The White Tree dies without a seedling to replace it.

3019 (= beginning of Fourth Age)     Aragorn takes the crown of the South and North Kingdoms.

Present:

Lihan Taifun           

Shawn Daysleeper 

AelKennyr Rhiano 

Summary:

Note that the “Ages” are not millenia. They are periods of history, of varying lengths, set off by important major victories of the good guys over the bad guys.

Minas Tirith was originally called Minas Anor. Its sister-city Minas Morgul was originally named Minas Ithil. The capital of Gondor was originally in Osgiliath.

Maps http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/m/minastirith.html

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/g/gondor.html

showing Minas Tirith (Minas Anor) in the foothills of the White Mountains, Minas Morgul (Minas Ithil) in the Mountains of Shadow on the border of Mordor, and Osgiliath between them, at the River Anduin.

A post at : http://www.minastirith.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001768 proposes that the kingdom of Gondor survived better than the North Kingdom because the kings of Gondor intermarried with non-Númenorean Humans, and the kings of Arnor did not. While fresh genetic material probably was good for the royal line of Gondor, the prejudice against Prince Eldacar marrying a foreigner caused a civil war in Gondor, the “Kin-strife.” We don't really know how the populace reacted to Faramir marrying Eowyn of Rohan. Aragorn could marry Arwen because marrying an Elf Princess was the stuff of legend, and people still remembered the story of Lúthien and Beren.

About a generation after the Kin-strife, plague further stressed the kingdom of Gondor.

Why did it take over 360 years from the time Osgiliath was damaged until the capital was moved to Minas Anor? Perhaps this indicated how conservative and traditional the people of Gondor are. Perhaps before the move, Minas Anor was a smaller, less important town than it later became. Perhaps the plague had hit Minas Anor especially hard.

Minas Anor (Tower of the Sun) was renamed Minas Tirith (Tower of Guard), shortly after the Nazgûl captured Minas Ithil (Tower of the Moon) and renamed it Minas Morgul (Tower of Dark Sorcery). Minas Tirith was now the only center in Gondor of resistance to Mordor.

We don't know when the Rammas Echor, the defensive wall around the Pelennor Fields outside Minas Tirith, was built. A defensive wall could have been built any time during the city's history. At the time of the battle in Lord of the Rings, Minas Tirith did not have the manpower to defend the entire wall; they hardly had enough manpower to defend the city itself. If the orcs had blasted only a small hole in the wall, and defended the wall themselves, they could have made it much harder for the rescuers to come to the aid of Minas Tirith.

{Lihan hands out notecards with the timeline, which is reprinted above.}

Lihan Taifun:            That is from the back of Lord of the Rings. I was getting so confused reading, that I had to write it down
AelKennyr Rhiano:  I bet. So Minas Anor IS Minas Tirith.
Lihan Taifun:            yes
AelKennyr Rhiano:  ok
Shawn Daysleeper:  it looks like Osgiliath was the main city until later in the third age
Lihan Taifun:            yes, it was
AelKennyr Rhiano:  I have a very stupid question.
Shawn Daysleeper:  no question is stupid. Shawn Daysleeper grins
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Second Age 3441(= beginning of Third Age)   ..... So if the 3rd Age began in 3441...why was the year "3"-441? Instead of 3000? Well, 3001
Lihan Taifun:            no no, the Ages didn't mean millenia
AelKennyr Rhiano:  What does it mean?
Lihan Taifun:            each "age" ended with some decisive battle (meaning, a battle the good guys won)
AelKennyr Rhiano:  ooohhh D'oh! AelKennyr Rhiano smacks forehead. Now I knew that.
Shawn Daysleeper:  there seem to be different number of years in each age
Lihan Taifun:            yes, only about 600 years in the First Age
Shawn Daysleeper:  ya ages seem to start at a major event, not a fixed number of years
AelKennyr Rhiano nods, blushing.
Shawn Daysleeper smiles
Lihan Taifun:            and then the numbers start over, with each age
AelKennyr Rhiano:  sorry for the slip of the mind :P
Shawn Daysleeper:  it's confusing
Lihan Taifun:            So the Second Age ended, and the Third Age began, when Elendil and Gilgalad defeated Sauron; erm, I guess Isildur gets credit for defeating him
Shawn Daysleeper:  ok
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Lihan Taifun:            I included some of the history of the North Kingdom, so it shows where Aragorn fits in
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Why was Minas Anor built and where exactly is it located?
Lihan Taifun:            Minas Anor is Minas Tirith; do we need a map?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  um.....trying to fit this all in to a historical perspective for myself...reads the card again, slower.
Shawn Daysleeper:  I think it is just across from Minas Ithil, with Osgiliath on the river between
Lihan Taifun:            ((looking for a map)) http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/m/minastirith.html
Shawn Daysleeper:  thank you
Lihan Taifun:            there is a wider map http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/g/gondor.html
AelKennyr Rhiano:  http://www.minastirith.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=1;DaysPrune=1000 There is a thread about Anor
Lihan Taifun:            somewhere
AelKennyr Rhiano:  http://www.minastirith.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001768
Lihan Taifun:            that intermarrying, or not, among the Kings was a decisive factor?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  that was the claim of the writer. I was just pointing it out. I don't think I really could debate that one way or another.
Lihan Taifun:            marrying outside the royal line was what started the civil war that was a big drain on Gondor
AelKennyr Rhiano:  the Civil War? in the first Age? the Kin-strife.
Lihan Taifun:            in the second age, around 1437
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Is that the Kin-strife?
Lihan Taifun:            yes
AelKennyr Rhiano:  when...was it the son of the king married a foreigner?
Lihan Taifun:            yes, and the people didn't accept that, didn't accept their son as the heir
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Right...didn't they overthrow him?
Lihan Taifun:            right
AelKennyr Rhiano:  So Aragorn was the result of ...inbreeding?
Shawn Daysleeper:  lol
AelKennyr Rhiano:  So why did they accept Arwen then?
Lihan Taifun:            well, all the remnant of the Numenoreans moved to Rivendell
AelKennyr Rhiano:  She was definitely a stranger to them...
Lihan Taifun:            but marrying an Elf Princess is marrying up
AelKennyr Rhiano:  hmmm....but remember the attitude the Gondorans had in LOTR. Was that also in the books, too?
Lihan Taifun:            marrying a non-Numenorean Human is marrying down
AelKennyr Rhiano:  heh heh
Lihan Taifun:            which attitude?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Well, it could be just me, and I could be just remember the movies, but I thought that what we saw of the people of Gondor was a rather disdainful and haughty depreciation of strangers not too far from xenophobia.
Lihan Taifun:            I agree, they thought themselves superior to everyone else
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. Was that attitude apparent in the books, too? I thought it was.
Shawn Daysleeper:  ya I agree
Lihan Taifun:            but marrying an Elf Princess was the stuff of legend; they still remember the story of Luthien
AelKennyr Rhiano:  ok...I can see that. And thankfully it helps the blood line.
Lihan Taifun:            and that. I'm sure the bloodline was getting strained. Now Faramir could marry a princess from Rohan, because he wasn't the king
AelKennyr Rhiano:  But now, going back to Minas Tirith, which was Minas Anor...the prince who married outside the line was Eldacar, right? And eventually he came back and retook his throne. So, the prejudice was only about the royal bloodline.
Lihan Taifun:            right, about Eldacar. I think they were fanatical about the royal bloodline; only "prejudiced" about other lands in general
AelKennyr Rhiano:  ok
Lihan Taifun:            we do't really know whether people grumbled about Faramir and Eowyn; "why couldn't he have married a nice local girl?"
AelKennyr Rhiano:  lol! And they also had a plague, too, right?
Lihan Taifun:            and there was a plague about 200 years after the civil war, which, for Numenorean, would only be about a generation, so that would have hit the population hard
Shawn Daysleeper:  yes
AelKennyr Rhiano:  But I could be muddling this all up...those things affected the capital. Did they directly affect Minas Tirith?
Lihan Taifun:            I think both the civil war and the plague affected the whole kingdom of Gondor
AelKennyr Rhiano:  ok
Lihan Taifun:            what I think is interesting is that it isn't clear that a descendent of Isildur would be heir of Gondor; that question had already come up, when Arvedui tried to claim the crown, and the lawyers argued about it
AelKennyr Rhiano:  When did Minas Tirith replace Osgiliath as the capital city?
Lihan Taifun:            around 1800 I'm surprised it took that long to move the capital
AelKennyr Rhiano:  so it was just ruins by the time of LOTR..Why? I meant...why are you surprised?
Lihan Taifun:            that it took 360+ years between when the city was damaged in the civil war, before moving the capital
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Maybe Tolkien did that to make a statement about the people themselves.
Lihan Taifun:            maybe they liked tradition
AelKennyr Rhiano:  They seem very resistant to new ways, new things, change.
Shawn Daysleeper:  maybe Minas Anor was not as great as it was in LOTR times
Lihan Taifun:            That would make a lot of sense, Shawn; it would have grown, after it became the capital; and pretty much the only inhabitable city in that part of the kingdom
Shawn Daysleeper:  ya with Osgiliath so close and the capital maybe Anor was just a suburb; or the plague effect was stronger in Minas Anor
Lihan Taifun:            yes
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Now those are excellent points. And I completely forgot to factor in the effects of the plague. It would explain why it took so long to become the capital.
Shawn Daysleeper smiles. yes
AelKennyr Rhiano smiles
Lihan Taifun:            so eventually Minas Anor becomes the capital
AelKennyr Rhiano:  and it was already renamed by then?
Lihan Taifun:            let's see .... no, it wasn't renamed until 2043, shortly after the Nazgul captured Minas Ithil and renamed it Minas Morgul
AelKennyr Rhiano:  oh...right, because now it alone stood as guard against Mordor, right?
Lihan Taifun:            yes
Shawn Daysleeper:  ya that make sense
AelKennyr Rhiano:  and the two cities now were enemies, right?
Lihan Taifun:            right
AelKennyr Rhiano:  With attacks back and forth.
Lihan Taifun:            not very cozy, having the Nazgul's headquarters staring at you
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Is that when the Rammas Echor was built?
Lihan Taifun:            I don't know. I didn't see any mention of when it was built; there were so many battles, I wouldn't even guess when it was first built
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. But surely after the two cities became enemies.
Shawn Daysleeper:  and it was likely expanded as time went by
Lihan Taifun:            that would make a lot of sense, yes
Shawn Daysleeper:  I don't remember that wall in the films
AelKennyr Rhiano:  thinks... You know...I don't either.
Lihan Taifun:            hmmm, no, must have been on of the details that didn't make it into the film
AelKennyr Rhiano:  But in the books it didn't prove to be much of a barrier again the orcs.
Lihan Taifun:            wouldn't it need to be defended along the whole length, to be much use?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  They breech it in a manner of hours and laid siege.
Shawn Daysleeper:  yes, it is not very effective
Lihan Taifun:            a wall is good for protecting the army, but it won't last without the army
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Yes, I believe it was a question of manpower
Shawn Daysleeper:  it looks like it would be miles /km long to defend
Lihan Taifun:            right, and they didn't have the manpower to defend a wall of that size
AelKennyr Rhiano:  not at all.
Lihan Taifun:            they pulled all the troops back to the main city wall, and even that was difficult to defend
AelKennyr Rhiano:  But the orcs doomed themselves by destroying behind them.
Lihan Taifun:            how so?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  because when they blasted it, and left it in ruins, they cleared the way for any army behind them to attack their rear.
Lihan Taifun:            hmmm, good point
AelKennyr Rhiano:  If they could have blasted only a section that could be readily repaired, they could use the fortification to defend themselves
Lihan Taifun:            true
AelKennyr Rhiano:  I think that was how Rohan was able to attack them from behind.
Lihan Taifun:            they weren't nearly worried enough about the other armies

Yavanna continued

 Present:

Shawn Daysleeper 

AelKennyr Rhiano 

Lihan Taifun           

Belenos                     (belenosstormchaser.magic)

Lúthien                     (luthien.braveheart)

Rajani                       (rajani.milton)

Fifi Wickentower   

Summary:

Last week we told Yavanna's story, up to the creation of the Two Trees. At this point, there is still no sun or moon. First the Lamps and then the Trees were actual major light sources.

Tolkien does a lot with silver/gold pairings. These seem to be significant, though maybe not exactly “symbolic.” Silver is the masculine element of the pair, and gold the feminine.

None of the names of any of Yavanna's Maiar are recorded. She must have had Maia helpers. We do know that there were many more Maiar than the ones whose names are mentioned.

Shortly after Yavanna makes the Trees, the Elves awaken in Middle-Earth, and the Valar evacuate as many as are willing to the Blessed Lands. There, the great Noldor craftsman Fëanor creates his masterpiece: the Silmarils, three jewels that capture the light of the Two Trees. Fëanor does this just because the Silmarils are pretty, and he is talented enough to make them.

Melkor covets the Silmarils. He gets his spider-ally Ungoliant to help him, and they sneak in, poison the Two Trees, and steal the Silmarils. Yavanna and Nienna try to save the Trees, but they fail. Everyone – Ainur and Elves alike – are heartbroken. The only remaining Light now is the stars and the Silmarils.

If Yavanna could sing the Trees into being in the first place, why could she not save them, or create replacements? (Setting aside the fact that this would eliminate the plot of the story.) Yavanna says that the Trees were a once-in-a-lifetime accomplishment for her. Perhaps this reflects that the Valar are not all-powerful. Perhaps “creating” was easier at the beginning of time, and matter is now less easy to reshape. We didn't come to a firm conclusion.

The Two Trees tie in with the common archetype of the “World Tree”/“Tree of Life”.

Perhaps in some deeper way, the Trees had to eventually fail, because they only provided light for the Blessed Lands, not all of Middle-Earth. The Trees, like moving the Elves to the Blessed Lands, could be only a temporary solution. The permanent solution had to involve all of Middle-Earth. This continues the theme that the Valar are neither all-powerful nor all-wise.

During the Age of the Trees, the Valar in general were concentrating on the Blessed Lands, and ignoring Middle-Earth. This was not a unanimous policy, and Yavanna was one of the Valar who continued to visit Middle-Earth. She of course would not abandon her creations there

Lúthien:                      Hi everybody, thats is my firts time here...
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Welcome! :)
Lúthien:                      i'm brazillian,. and love tolkien literature. thanks
{Greetings continue.}

Rajani:                        Yavanna and the Ents tonight again?
Lihan Taifun:            last week we hadn't quite finished the story of Yavanna and the Two Trees
AelKennyr Rhiano:  I have to ask...tonight...can we please be a little more chronological? I stayed lost nearly the whole time last week? AelKennyr Rhiano blushes
Lihan Taifun:            yes, that would be good
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Oh, gods, yes! smiles
Belenos nods a lot
AelKennyr Rhiano smiles a little ruefully.
Lihan Taifun:            I ended up writing a summary for the archive
AelKennyr Rhiano:  That has to be hard to do.
Lihan Taifun:            shall I repeat that, from last week?
Rajani blushes...one kept trying to add to the story and it ended up being very confusing! yes please
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Luthien, we have a blog on the web for this discussion group.
Lihan Taifun:            http://tolkiendiscussion.blogspot.com/
AelKennyr Rhiano smiles
Lihan Taifun:            Yavanna:
• She is the Vala of plants and animals. You mostly hear about her in connection with plants.
• Her name, “Yavanna‚”, means “Giver of Fruits”.
• Her title “Kementári” means “Queen of the Earth” -- “earth” in the sense of the flat ground, the soil.
• She is the wife of Aulë (the Vala of the materials of which the earth is made ‚Äì rocks and mountains and such).
• We have no record of the names of any of the Maiar who assist her.
Lúthien:                      oh, i see. Thanks!!!
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Lihan keeps it current and runs the discussion :)
Lihan Taifun:            The story of Yavanna creating the Two Trees:
At the beginning of the World, the Valar created two lamps to light the World. "Aulë at the prayer of Yavanna wrought two mighty lamps for the lighting of the Middle-earth which he had build between the encircling seas. Then Varda filled the lamps, and Manwë hallowed them, and the Valar set them upon high pillars, more lofty far than are mountains of the later days." One lamp was in the far north of Middle-Earth and one in the far south.


Aulë is the Vala generally in charge of making things.


The Valar held a big party to celebrate finishing all the creation. This was also the wedding of the Valar Tulkas and Nessa. Aulë took a nap because he was tired from all the work of creating, and Tulkas was busy honeymooning with Nessa. While Aulë and Tulkas weren't paying attention, Melkor snuck into Middle-Earth, broke the lamps, and generally smashed up the new world. The entire world is dark again.


The Valar did major repairs. At this time, they built and fortified the continent of Aman for themselves. In Aman, they built the city of Valimar and estates for each of the Valar. When this work was completed, Yavanna went out to the hill outside the city of Valimar, by the circle of the thrones of the Valar, and sang the Two Trees into life, and Nienna watered them with her tears.


The Silver Tree was named Telperion, and was considered male. The Gold Tree was named Laurelin, and considered female. (These Two Trees will, later in the story, be the sources of the Moon and Sun.) Tolkien does a lot with the symbolism of silver and gold. Each tree glowed for half a day, taking turns, and this provided light for Aman. The “mingling of lights at twilight‚” when one tree faded and the other began, was especially magical and beautiful. The liquid light that fell from the trees and collected at their bases was magical, and Varda used some of it to make stars.


Everything is happy and magical in Aman for a long time. It is during this time that the Elves awake, and the Valar evacuate to Aman those who are willing (that is, the Vanyar, the Noldor, and the Teleri).
{This is not the end of the story, but this is where we ran out of time this week.}

Lihan Taifun gives people time to read all that
{Fifi arrives. Greetings}

AelKennyr Rhiano:  What were the lamps supposed to indicate Lihan?
Lihan Taifun:            indicate?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  symbolize?
Lihan Taifun:            nothing was ever said about that
Rajani:                        I think they weren't symbols so much as actual light sources, because, no sun and no moon yet
Lihan Taifun:            yes, actual light sources
AelKennyr Rhiano:  ok
Lihan Taifun:            oh yes, that is very important, the sun and moon aren't around yet
Belenos:                      but you mentioned something about the symbolism of silver and gold?
Rajani:                        Tolkien repeats the motif of silver and gold a lot, but I'm not sure what exactly it is a symbol of....associated with masculine and feminine qualities sometimes
Lihan Taifun:            maybe "symbolisn" is too strong a word, but Tolkien does seem very fond of "silver and gold" pairings
Belenos:                      ahhh... ok, thank you..
Shawn Daysleeper:  nods
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Silver was associated with male, the masculine?
Lihan Taifun:            yes
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Interesting
Belenos:                      so.. we are up to the trees being made
Rajani:                        in some of the other stories you will notice references to trees, and they often are related to the Two Trees....the White Tree in Gondor, for example, is a great great great great great grandchild of the Silver Tree Telperion
Lihan Taifun:            we are up to the Trees being made
Rajani:                        we are up to the Trees being made, by Yavanna \o/
Lihan Taifun:            and it is during the Age of the Trees that the Elves awaken, and the Valar evacuate them to the Undying Lands
ok, so after a long happy time, Melkor starts quietly stirring up trouble. he poisons the minds of the Noldor against the Valar
Rajani:                        nodnod
Lihan Taifun:            and particularly, he poisons Feanor's mind
Rajani:                        Feanor is a great Elvish craftsman
Lihan Taifun:            Feanor is the eldest son of Finwe the King of the Noldor, yes, great craftsman
and his masterpiece is the three Silmarils ... jewels the capture the Light of the Two Trees
Rajani:                        nodnod
Lihan Taifun:            and Melkor totally covets the Silmarills
Belenos:                      why did he make jewels to capture their light?
Rajani:                        the Silmarillion is named after the Silmarils....the book title means "story of the Silmarils"
Belenos:                      what was the need?
Rajani:                        because it was pretty, I think
Lihan Taifun:            yes, because it was pretty, and hard to to
Rajani:                        the Silmarils are kind of like literal stars in gem form....pretty fantastic and pretty difficult work even for an Elf
Lihan Taifun:            exactly
Rajani:                        everybody loves them. the Silmarillion is all about the crazy things people do to get their hands on them :P (there are 3 Silmarils)
Lihan Taifun:            but that is getting ahead of the story :)
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Can we get back to Yavanna?
Rajani:                        yes, erm
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Isn't it odd that there is no record of Maiar attending Yavanna?
Lihan Taifun:            at least none of their names are recorded
Rajani:                        there are only about half a dozen named Maiar in total, so there must be a whole lot we don't know the names of (insert original characters here! :D)
Shawn Daysleeper:  hehe
Lihan Taifun:            the Trees! can we finish the story?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  I mean, she has a lot of responsibility, why ...sure
Rajani:                        Morgoth hates the Trees
Lihan Taifun:            Melkor next gets his giant-spider ally to help him, and the two of them sneak in and poison the Two Trees
Rajani:                        nodnod
Shawn Daysleeper:  yes
Lihan Taifun:            now the only Light left is the stars in the sky, and the three Silmarils
Rajani:                        Yavanna and Nienna try to save the Trees, but are unsuccessful
Belenos:                      I imagine Yavanna would have been pretty distressed at that?
Lihan Taifun:            oh yes! everyone was
Rajani:                        Heartbroken I expect :(
Lihan Taifun:            but probably Yavanna the worst
Rajani:                        it's the end of an era yeah :(
Lihan Taifun:            The Valar send a message to Feanor, asking him to give them the Silmarils
Belenos:                      can i ask a question?
Lihan Taifun:            yes?
Belenos:                      If at this point the trees have been poisioned.. and yavanna sang them into being in the first place.. why didn't she just sing some more?
Lihan Taifun:            I think she said it was the kind of masterpiece she could only do once. Rajani, do you remember?
Rajani:                        I think that's right, it was her great work for a lifetime, sort of thing
Lihan Taifun:            I think that because Feanor said something about, the Silmarills were something HE could only do once in his lifetime. yes
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Yavanna?
Lihan Taifun:            yes, the Trees were Yavanna's great, once-in-a-lifetime masterpiece
Rajani:                        Wikipedia says, "Again Yavanna sang and Nienna wept, but they succeeded only in reviving Telperion's last flower (to become the Moon) and Laurelin's last fruit (to become the Sun). "
Belenos:                      interesting thought that she had the power to do it once.. but not a second time.. so her creative abilities are more like an artist who paints (for example).. rather than a 'power' as such
Lihan Taifun:            BUT WE HAVEN"T GOTTEN TO THAT YET
Rajani:                        argh sorry. :(
Lihan Taifun:            yes, I agree, Belenos, it doesn't quite make sense
Rajani:                        I don't think the Valar are limitless in their power though
Lihan Taifun:            it wouldn't make a very good story, though, if Yavanna could just make new Trees
Rajani:                        like, I don't think Varda kept making stars all teh time after the first few rounds
Lihan Taifun:            and there may have been something about "creating" was easier at the beginning of time
Rajani:                        mmm, that would make sense
Belenos:                      yes that's true... but i'm using it as an example of how to form her character's abilities in my RP.. *smiles*..
Rajani:                        :D
Lihan Taifun:            as time went on, the Valar did less and less "creating", and more guiding and guarding and giving advice
Rajani:                        everything fades with time in Tolkien's world, though if that affects the Valar it's a much longer period of power and a much slower decline than for humans or Elves
Lihan Taifun:            oh yes, very relevant questions
Rajani:                        I also kind of vaguely remember that Morgoth's spider friend may have poisoned the ground the Trees were on? is that right? so they couldn't have grown again in any case
Lihan Taifun:            hmmm
AelKennyr Rhiano:  I found something interesting about Yavanna earlier...
Lihan Taifun:            oh?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  "With Yavanna Tolkien creates a Goddess who resembles the 'Tree of Life' or 'World-tree' myths found in many cultures from all over the world. Not only Yggdrasil in Germanic/Norse tradition - as mentioned above - is an example, also Nyagrodha in the Upanishads, Asvattha in the Bhagavad Gita, even the two Trees in the Garden of Eden are further occurrences of this myth. Depictions of such 'Trees of Life' dating back as far as to the early Sumerian period have been found. "
Lihan Taifun:            ah, ok, so Yavanna and the Trees are tapping into the Tree of Life /Goddess archetype
Belenos:                      so to Tolkien she would have been closely bound to the trees... so their loss would have affected her greatly
Lihan Taifun:            that makes a lot of sense
AelKennyr Rhiano:  yes. if I may share a bit more, please?
Lihan Taifun:            please
AelKennyr Rhiano:  The cosmic ash of Germanic mythology. Its branches overhung all the worlds and struck out above the heavens. It had three mighty roots: one reached down to Giantland, where stood the wisdom well of Mimir; the second ended in foggy Niflheim, close by the well of Hvergelmir, close by the “the roaring cauldron”, and dragon Nidhoggr, “dread biter”, which gnawed the root from below; the last was embedded in heaven and beneath it was the sacred well of Urdr, where the gods had their judgement seat.

Yggdrasil means “the horse of the terrible one‚”, Odin. Since this god discovered the secret of runic wisdom by hanging himself on the cosmic ash” that is, sacrificing himself to himself”, Yggdrasil must have been regarded as a tree of knowledge. Parallel with the Cross, the death of Odin has a separate ancestry, sacrificial trees have existed in northern Europe from earliest times. Christian missionaries like St Boniface (c.674-754) cut them down, to the terror and rage of the people: till he was himself cut down at Dockum near the Frisian coast.

Now as I hear so many expound upon the Christian overtones of Tolkien's literature, I found this interesting.
Lihan Taifun:            quite
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Why would he have linked such an important Vala with such a pagan concept. Why was Yavanna needed in the first place?
Shawn Daysleeper:  it was a vala concept but it did fail them
Rajani:                        Tolkien had a longstanding fondness for Norse myth
AelKennyr Rhiano:  I read over the Silmarillion again, and one could almost make the case that he could have fused Varda and Yavanna into one character?
Rajani:                        hmm
AelKennyr Rhiano:  What do you mean, Shawn? That was an interesting comment :)
Shawn Daysleeper:  in the end the trees were not a permenant substitution for the lamps, not sure where to take it from there hehe
Rajani:                        :D So, even the Valar's solutions don't always work
Lihan Taifun:            and they could never have been a permanent substitute, because the Trees only lit up the Blessed Lands, not Middle Earth
Rajani:                        nodnod
AelKennyr Rhiano:  No, the trees were not, Shawn. Do you think that had a deeper meaning, perhaps?
Shawn Daysleeper:  ya it could, but not sure exactly what
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Lihan Taifun:            it seems to go with that era when the Valar we only caring about what happened in their own land, not Middle Earth. they moved the elves to Aman, and ignored Middle Earth
Shawn Daysleeper:  it shows the vala are not perfect, both Yavanna and Aule failed in their own ways at times
Belenos:                      it's shows they were not all powerful and all knowing, that's for sure
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Oh, Shawn, I like that observation. yes
Lihan Taifun:            and the whole era was shortsighted
AelKennyr Rhiano:  But...see...wait... Yavanna had to care. she was "Queen of the Earth," right?
Belenos:                      yes.. it was all her creation
Lihan Taifun:            and Yavanna and Orome were among the very few who visited Middle Earth and checked up on things
Rajani:                        oh that's true
AelKennyr Rhiano:  So...yes, I can see where this shows that they were not all powerful, but I can't go with they were uncaring.
Rajani:                        for part of the time, there wasn't anyone else to care about, besides the animals, because the Elves weren't there yet. licking their wounds after the last round of fights with Morgoth maybe :P
Lihan Taifun:            "neglectful"?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  But Yavana was the person who should care MOST about the plants AND the animals.
Rajani:                        Maybe Yavanna always had a plan for how to bring light to the rest of Arda
AelKennyr Rhiano:  in fact, I could try to make the case that there would be little distinction to her between elves and deer...as both are animals.
Fifi Wickentower:    nod nod
Belenos:                      they were both living beings
AelKennyr Rhiano:  I think we are shorting Yavanna tremendously.
Lihan Taifun:            the Valar in general weren't paying much attention to Middle Earth, Yavanna was
AelKennyr Rhiano:  We are looking at everything BUT her and her relationship within the community of the Vala and her position among them.
Belenos:                      it is easy to lump all the valar into 'the valar' and assume all were in agreement with actions taken by the group on the whole.. or to not think about how they may have individually thought or felt on those actions
Lihan Taifun:            and in this case, we know that they were not all agreed
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Right
Lihan Taifun:            on a number of topics
Fifi Wickentower:    te unifying factor was the Great Song . . before and after they each had their own concerns and affairs
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Agreed, fifi!
Lihan Taifun:            not all agreed it was a good plan to bring the Elves to Aman
Fifi Wickentower:    nod

{Several people have to leave. We will continue next week.}

Yavanna

Present:

AelKennyr Rhiano 

Lihan Taifun           

Rhûn Darkmoon

Rajani                       (rajani.milton)

Belenos                    (belenosstormchaser.magic)

Summary:

Yavanna:

●  She is the Vala of plants and animals. You mostly hear about her in connection with plants.

●  Her name, “Yavanna”, means “Giver of Fruits”.

●  Her title “Kementári” means “Queen of the Earth” -- “earth” in the sense of the flat ground, the soil.

●  She is the wife of Aulë (the Vala of the materials of which the earth is made – rocks and mountains and such).

●  We have no record of the names of any of the Maiar who assist her.

The story of Yavanna creating the Two Trees:

At the beginning of the World, the Valar created two lamps to light the World. "Aulë at the prayer of Yavanna wrought two mighty lamps for the lighting of the Middle-earth which he had build between the encircling seas. Then Varda filled the lamps, and Manwë hallowed them, and the Valar set them upon high pillars, more lofty far than are mountains of the later days." One lamp was in the far north of Middle-Earth and one in the far south.

Aulë is the Vala generally in charge of making things.

The Valar held a big party to celebrate finishing all the creation. This was also the wedding of the Valar Tulkas and Nessa. Aulë took a nap because he was tired from all the work of creating, and Tulkas was busy honeymooning with Nessa. While Aulë and Tulkas weren't paying attention, Melkor snuck into Middle-Earth, broke the lamps, and generally smashed up the new world. The entire world is dark again.

The Valar did major repairs. At this time, they built and fortified the continent of Aman for themselves. In Aman, they built the city of Valimar and estates for each of the Valar. When this work was completed, Yavanna went out to the hill outside the city of Valimar, by the circle of the thrones of the Valar, and sang the Two Trees into life, and Nienna watered them with her tears. 

 

The Silver Tree was named Telperion, and was considered male. The Gold Tree was named Laurelin, and considered female. (These Two Trees will, later in the story, be the sources of the Moon and Sun.) Tolkien does a lot with the symbolism of silver and gold. Each tree glowed for half a day, taking turns, and this provided light for Aman. The “mingling of lights at twilight”, when one tree faded and the other began, was especially magical and beautiful. The liquid light that fell from the trees and collected at their bases was magical, and Varda used some of it to make stars.

Everything is happy and magical in Aman for a long time. It is during this time that the Elves awake, and the Valar evacuate to Aman those who are willing (that is, the Vanyar, the Noldor, and the Teleri).

{This is not the end of the story, but this is where we ran out of time this week.}

Lihan Taifun:            do we want to start thinking about ents?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  I thought it was Yavanna AND the ents...Not just the ents?
Lihan Taifun:            yes, Yavanna and the ents; where were we last week?
Rajani:                        something about how Ents happened because Yavanna didn't trust Dwarves not to hack at trees
Lihan Taifun:            I wonder whether it worked. Did ents stop Dwarves form chopping trees?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Can we start tonight, thought, discussing Yavanna? We are going to rp tonight, and that would really help us, I think.
Rajani:                        that could be cool
Belenos blushes some more.. it would be appreciated.. I am still very new to the character of Yavanna
Lihan Taifun:            does someone want to say something about Yavanna?
Rajani:                        Yavanna and Aule sort of seem to me to be a case of opposites attract in a way....but also they are similar because they are both interested in the physical world (rocks on the one hand, trees on the other)
Belenos:                     well, other than that she was with aule and made the growing things I know little about her.. it's why I asked for the topic because usually so much more comes out in the discussions than you find on the internet
AelKennyr Rhiano:  I think we were waiting for you to share your wisdom?
Lihan Taifun:            oh
AelKennyr Rhiano:  :)
Lihan Taifun:            um, well, yes, she is Aule's wife, she's in charge of plants and animals; you mostly hear about her in connection with plants. Her name "Yavanna" means "giver of fruits". Her titles are Kementari (queen of the earth -- as in the flat earth, the ground, soil)
Rajani:                        Yavanna Kementari is a very pretty name I always thought
AelKennyr Rhiano:  What was the quenya for animals?
Lihan Taifun:            kelvar?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  ok Was there a Maia who assisted her?
Rajani:                        hmm, I don't remember one right off, but, we don't know very much about the Maiar names at all
Lihan Taifun:            I don't know of any named Maiar we know of
Belenos:                     there are maiar listed who were with aule. but none i've found listed for yavanna
Rajani:                        didn't Sauron originally work for Aulë            ?
Belenos:                     yes
Lihan Taifun:            yes, her song caused the Two Trees to grow, and she might have been able to repair the Trees, if she had the Silmarills to work with
Rajani:                        oh yes, she was part of the whole story with the Trees and Melkor and all that too, right?
Lihan Taifun:            yes, and that is the last story she is in , I think
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Wait, please. Part of the whole story with the Trees and Melkor?
Rajani:                        that story should probably be told from the beginning :D
AelKennyr Rhiano:  yes, please?
Rajani:                        um, what do I remember about that...
AelKennyr Rhiano:  It feels like we are bouncing all over the place and not giving the discussion its due and assuming we all know the same thing.
Rajani:                        well, there is not very much about Yavanna to bounce around between :D
Belenos nods nods I have to agree.. i'm getting lost already
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Me, too.
Rajani:                        but that is an important story
Belenos:                     well.. it kinda helps if it's in some sort of order?
Lihan Taifun:            I found that chapter
Rajani:                        oh good
AelKennyr Rhiano:  So...from the top?
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'Please.'
Lihan Taifun:            after the city of Valimar was built, Yavanna went to the hill outside the city, near the circle of the thrones of the Valar, and sang the Two Trees into existence, and Nienna watered them with her tears
Belenos:                     Did she use anything then to help her?
Rajani:                        nodnod
Rajani:                        did she just sing?
Lihan Taifun:            in the published Silmarillion, she just sang
Rajani:                        one three was silver, Telperion, and the fruit from that made the Moon (that Tilion guides) and the other one was gold, Laurelin, and the fruit from that made the Sun (that Arien guides)
Belenos:                     pretty powerful singing to make trees like taht
Rajani:                        yeah!
Rhûn Darkmoon nods a lot, 'I'll say.'
Rajani:                        when Yavanna made the trees there was no Sun or Moon, so she made the trees glow for light. the Lamps of the Valar from the previous episode, when there was also no sun or moon yet
Lihan Taifun:            in some other drafts, the Valar planted the remnants of the two lights, which Melkor had broken
Rajani:                        ooh, that would make sense
Lihan Taifun:            yes, everything Rajani said (although the Sun and Moon come later)
Belenos:                     wait.. are you talking now about the other drafts or the book?
Rajani:                        Melkor is a jerk and keeps breaking the lightbulbs :(
Lihan Taifun:            'cause he likes the dark, to sneak around better
Rajani:                        yes
Rhûn Darkmoon blushes, 'Please, you are losing me again. I.. I have not read the books.'
Rajani:                        yes, there are several drafts of the Silmarillion stories, because Tolkien was indecisive, but we can say that it is because the myths changed over time, and the Elves told many different versions of the stories later on :)
Belenos:                     well I think though I need to know the one we are based on?
Rajani:                        simplest to go with what was published though, maybe?
Belenos:                     yes please?
Lihan Taifun:            yes, and in this case it is only a minor difference in detail
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'Please, do. I.. I am getting confused otherwise.'
Rajani:                        nod nod
Belenos:                     so we are up to where she sang the trees into life... and the sun and the moon came from them
Lihan Taifun:            the the published version, Yavanna just sings the Two Trees into existence, to provide light, since Melkor broke the first lights
Rajani:                        yes exactly
Rajani:                        Morgoth keeps breaking everything that the Valar make, and he broke their last source of light, so Yavanna made the trees to shed light
AelKennyr Rhiano:  What were the first lights?
Rajani:                        giant lamps think? possibly Aule made them (?)
Lihan Taifun:            there used to be two huge lights, set on pillars, one in the north of Middle Earth and one in the south
Rhûn Darkmoon listens
Rajani:                        But Morgoth broke them. actually he and Aule really hate each other's guts, because of stuff like that
Lihan Taifun:            yep
Belenos:                     wait, why would aule in particular hate morgoth over that?
Rajani:                        because Aule is the Maker of stuff (mountains, giant lamps) and Morgoth breaks everything Aule makes as soon as he can. And then Aule makes more stuff and Morgoth tries to smash it
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'So he's not just the maker of the Dwarves and 'the Smith'?'
Rajani:                        Dwarves were a late development. Lihan, do you have a quote about Aule building things, from your chapter?
Lihan Taifun:            "Aule at the prayer of Yavanna wrought two mighty lamps for the lighting of the Middle-earth which he had build between the encircling seas " ...
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Ok.'
Lihan Taifun:            ..."Then Varda filled the lamps, and Manwe hallowed them, and the Valar set them upon high pillars, more lofty far than are mountains of the later days"
Rajani listens
Lihan Taifun:            one in the south and one in the north, casting constant daylight over the whole world
Rajani:                        yes
Lihan Taifun:            then, the Valar held a big party to celebrate getting everything finished
Rajani:                        was that when Morgoth showed up to smash stuff?
Lihan Taifun:            and Aule and Tulkas took naps, and while they were napping, Melkor snuck around and smashed the lamps, yes
Rajani:                        he is such a jerk
Belenos:                     i read that, that tulkas and nessa got married.. and then tulkas went to sleep. I thought at the time he must have had too much wine at the wedding
Rajani:                        I bet she wore him out first :P aaanyway
Rhûn Darkmoon blushes crimson
Rajani:                        :P
Lihan Taifun:            you're right, that was the wedding, ok. ..."weary and content" is how Tulkas is described, and for Tolkien, that is saying a lot
Rajani:                        haha, yes, honeymooning. they had all been pretty busy though, so I don't blame them for taking a break. Anyway, so, Aule makes lamps, lamps get smashed, Yavanna makes trees
Belenos:                     so ok.. we are up to teh trees being made and the celebration.. so what happened after?.. Morgoth destoyed the trees?
Rajani:                        Trees stick around for a couple centuries or millenia, right? but then....
Belenos:                     ok.. but umm yavanna? trees?
Rajani:                        yes! the Trees were around for a while, right?
Lihan Taifun:            so, after the wedding, and the lamps get broken,and the Valar have lots of rebuilding, and they build the island of Aman, and fortify it
Rajani:                        nod nod
Lihan Taifun:            and build the city of Valimar, and estates for all the Valar
Rajani:                        at which point I think Valimar is pretty much like it is now in our RP
Lihan Taifun:            and when they have done that, Yavanna grows the Two Trees
Rajani:                        One tree glows at a time,so one is getting brighter and the other is getting dimmer, and then they reverse
Lihan Taifun:            yes, very pretty
Rajani:                        when they are both half-light, that is twilight, yes, very magical, Tolkien does a lot of symbolism with gold vs silver, I think
I might be remembering wrong that one of the Trees is cast as feminine and the other as masculine? ?
Lihan Taifun:            yes, the Gold Tree is female, and the Silver Tree is male. and the liquid light that falls out of the Trees collects in pools, and is very magical
Rajani:                        yes! and! Varda makes stars out of some of it (Ilmare probably did some of that)
{Ael leaves to get things ready for a roleplay session.}
Rajani:                        ok, so everything is happy and magical for a long time, but Morgoth had this friend Ungoliant....well I say friend, more like uneasy ally
Lihan Taifun:            and while everything is happy and magical, the elves move to Aman
Rajani:                        Olwe and his brothers
Lihan Taifun:            the Vanyar, the Noldor, and the Teleri
Rajani:                        they were born in Middle Earth and came to Valinor, and that is a whole long story in itself. the Vanyar live nearest the Valar, the Noldor are craftsmen, and teh Teleri are mariners.Teleri is Alqualonde :)
Belenos:                     well umm.. yes.. and we are tying to focus on Yavanna.. but unfortunately She has role play tonight.. so can we continue this next week on her story?