Tolkien Discussion Group
September 1, 2010
Topic: Mandos
Present:
AelKennyr Rhiano
Lihan Taifun
Rosie Gray
Shawn Daysleeper
Odil Lumiere
Summary:
There is some similarity between Mandos and the Catholic concept of Purgatory, as a temporary place for souls.
What purpose, exactly, is served by an elf's time in Mandos?
Tolkien seems to have been uneasy with the implications of elves being reincarnated, and perhaps never completely figured out how that was supposed to work.
Perhaps elves, who live for so long, need time to detach from their connections to the earth.
Are orcs still elf-like enough to go to Mandos? (Presumably in a different waiting room from the standard elves)
Would the various races perceive Mandos in the same way?
Does Mandos have to keep the Noldor and the Teleri separated?
Perhaps Tolkien believed, in principle, that an afterlife was important, but didn't have all the details worked out.
Do you think the Teleri killed in the Kinslaying have been allowed to go back to Alqualondë yet?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . did everyone get my notecard on Mandos, last week?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . It's hard to know where to start to talk about Mandos.
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . he's kind of like the keeper of limbo, or so it seems to me
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . why limbo?
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . well, because of the souls going to him
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Are the Halls of Mandos a temporary rest stop, as limbo is? wait, limbo is not temporary, is it?
Shawn Daysleeper: . the limbo may be similar to purgatory, in tolkeins world
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . I thought that limbo was between heaven and hell
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . limbo is between heaven and hell. It is a place where souls are forever denied the face of God for Christians
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I'm not Catholic, so I know nothing about that
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . so that would be somewhere between heaven and hell, I would think
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Purgatory is more like serving a prison sentence. Once you have done your time there, you can move
onto heaven.
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . it sounds like where Mandos dwells
Shawn Daysleeper: . (in Roman Catholic doctrine) purgatory : a place or state of suffering inhabited by the souls of sinners who are expiating their sins before going to heaven.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I was brought up Southern Bapitist.
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . I was brought up Nazarene
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . sounds like bad theology to me ...
Shawn Daysleeper: . wasn't Tolkein Catholic?
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . yes
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . true, he was, so he would be influenced by that thinking
Shawn Daysleeper: . it makes sense
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes, he was...CS Lewis was Anglican.
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . what sounds like bad theology Lihan?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . sitting around "expiating sins"
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . well, I think you get off for "good behavior.", and if people pray for your soul.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . what does "expiating" mean, anyway?
Shawn Daysleeper: . atone for (guilt or sin).When I first read the Silmarillion (many years ago) and I read the section on Mandos, I instantly thought purgatory
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . but that begs the question of what are the elves atoning for?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . and, for that matter, what were the elves doing in Mandos? What purpose did thir time in Mandos serve?
Shawn Daysleeper: . good questions
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . exactly
Shawn Daysleeper: . well, Mandos (the halls) sounds like purgatory
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Oh, I can see that, Shawn. I just wondered at the purpose.
Shawn Daysleeper: . I know
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . apparently, once the elves were done, they could at least possibly "return" to living lands
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . reincarnate? AelKennyr Rhiano whispers: wow, that would be radical for Tolkien
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yeah
Shawn Daysleeper: . they come for the final battle? which again parallels christanity, in the final battle with satan -- angels and hosts of heaven -- battle
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . ahhh
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I read somewhere, long ago, that Tolkien had trouble with the reincarnation part, and he wasn't sure they would be born as baby elves, or maybe just reappear as full-grown elves, Either way has logical problems
Shawn Daysleeper: . Tolkein never clarifies whether they would be reborn as full grown, maybe he couldn't figure it out
himself?
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . Tolkien would have had trouble with reincarnation I would think
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I think you are right, Shawn, he didn't figure out how that ought to work
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . If he were a traditional Roman Catholic, which appears to be the case, perhaps.
Shawn Daysleeper: . yes, which is why he left it unanswered or unexplained
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . it's as though he wanted to explore other ways of religion, but didn't want to go the whole way
Shawn Daysleeper nods
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . However, he also loved and delved into several world mythologies in creating his world, so who can truly say?
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . oh yes that's true. He was obviously an intellectual
Odil Lumiere: . . . . . . . may I say something pleas?
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . just jump right in Odil
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . please do
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . oh, Please, do :)
Shawn Daysleeper: . please :)
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Don't ask...jump in ! :))
Odil Lumiere: . . . . . . . It is possible that the reason is that everyone has to work out their own salvation, even the elves
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . ouuuu....good point.
Rosie Gray nods
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . how would that work out?
Odil Lumiere: . . . . . . . and purgatory sometimes not what any one religion describes but what we send ourserves in
Shawn Daysleeper: . the elves are tied to the earth, not sure what they are saving themselves from
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I was wondering that myself, Shawn
Odil Lumiere: . . . . . . . from too much pride in they earthly heritage?
Shawn Daysleeper: . ya could be
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . well that's all a bit too deep for me lol
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . or it could be a place where they go through the process of detaching from earthly things.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . the two elves we know have never come back are Feanor, and his mother Miriel
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . The elves are long lived, and so over the course of centuries would become bound to the earth.
Shawn Daysleeper: . which is why they go to mandos when their bodies are slain, instead of escaping the circles of the world, which the humans experience
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . so that is back to the kind of limbo place
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . because humans have less time to become earthbound?
Shawn Daysleeper: . interesting Ael, could be
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . I don't know
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . because Tolkien didn't want to make human destiny incompatible with his own religion?
Shawn Daysleeper: . what if a baby elf is killed
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . it seems to me that no matter how long your earthly life is, you would feel bound to the earth because of it -- time being relative
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . so why does Mandos oversee the elves who have died? He's certainly no Satan.
Odil Lumiere: . . . . . . . I am sorry I must go, there is a bad storm over my country
{Farewells}
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . the Vala Mandos seems to be more a caretaker for the souls
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . like a kindly but remote uncle
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . keep them from hurting themselves? He seems to be strict, but maybe that is more in his other role of speaking prophecy, especially unpleasant prophecy
Shawn Daysleeper: . maybe to separate the different earthbound races?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . it does seem like the different races have different waiting rooms. Although, since most of what is written is from the elves perspective, we don't know much for sure about the other races
Shawn Daysleeper: . if they go to mandos when they die? or are separated?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . the dwarves claim that they go to Mandos, in a separate area. And Beren apparently was over in the human sector of Mandos, and waiting for Luthien, instead of travelling on
Shawn Daysleeper: . yes
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . sounds like a tenement!
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . but the Vala Mandos had to bring Beren to Luthien, otherwise she wouldn't have found him
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . it must be a lot of souls there
Shawn Daysleeper: . was Beren's experience in mandos an experience of salvation?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . it sounded more like he was just waiting
Shawn Daysleeper: . ok
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . he didn't even get offered a choice. The Valar said they HAD to send him on, eventually. They couldn't interfere with his human destiny. Luthien had the choice
Shawn Daysleeper: . right, ok.Mandos in a way becomes more removed from the world as events unfold, when the world was made round
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . how is he more removed?
Shawn Daysleeper: . not the Vala, the halls
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . oh, ok
Shawn Daysleeper: . more removed from the mortal world
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . but would that affect spirits?
Shawn Daysleeper: . well, perhaps the mortals image of death would change
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . like the Humans?
Shawn Daysleeper: . hmm, it was just a thought. I have no evidence
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . it's not a bad thought.
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . ㋡
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . There is a lot of room for speculation.
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . there certainly is
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . indeed
Shawn Daysleeper had some espresso before coming to this meeting. Shawn Daysleeper is somewhat hyper
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . hahahah
Rosie Gray probably needed some espresso before coming to this meeting
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . then there is Inya's favorite question, what happens to dead orcs? Are they still elf-like enough to come to Mandos?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . and it is a good question
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . oh yes the orc-question
Shawn Daysleeper: . well, they were once elves, and stll would be if they not been tampered by dark powers
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . And would the Orcs, elves and dwarves perceive Mandos the same way?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . oooh, good point, they might not. You would think that even dark powers couldn't actually remove a soul
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . looking at it, it seems that in a way the orcs would have more ties to Mandos than the dwarves
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I could not see Tolkien wanting to put forth that possibility.
Shawn Daysleeper: . yes, so I think they would have the same fate when it comes to souls
Shawn Daysleeper: . ya maybe Tolkein was having difficulty figuring it out, so he didn't clarify
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I can imagine keeping the orcs separate from the elves, though
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . or just didn't have time to figure out all the nuances
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . orcs would take A LOT of rehabilitation
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . lol
Shawn Daysleeper: . oh ya. Shawn Daysleeper laughs
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yeah, I think the orcs would complain to management otherwise.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I would think the elves would complain to management, too
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . they would need individual probation officers!
Shawn Daysleeper: . lol
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . hahahaha Mandos: "Oh, Smif the orc, I am putting on parole, but whatever you do...don't go to the 12th floor...the elves think they are the only ones here."
Shawn Daysleeper: . I hope the pay is good
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . yes ㋡
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Ainur get paid?
Shawn Daysleeper: . ya Irmo charges a flat rate per dream
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . rofl
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . hahaha He should get base + commission.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . + hazard pay
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I'm sure the elves think they are the only ones there
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . nod nod nod
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . yes they would think that
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yeah and we keep wondering why room service is so lousy.
Shawn Daysleeper: . probation officers may need workman's comp in the orc wing
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . lol
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . that would be Este's job
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . they definitely would. Este could sooth their rumpled souls some
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . the orcs, or the parole officers?
Shawn Daysleeper: . orcs
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . But seriously, what is Mandos' true role?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes, Mandos true role ..
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . I think Mandos is supposed to be an aspect of god. In fact, I think all the Vala are like parts of a christian god
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . He is not Hades ruling an underworld, or a fallen angel, like Lucifer..
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . no no, but he is like the old man in the sky bit, drawing people to him
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . in some respects he does seem like Hades
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . how like Hades?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . well, "in charge of keeping the dead dead", and collecting them all, the good and the bad, regardless
Shawn Daysleeper: . no, I see the halls of Mandos like a hall of heroes, like a place of chivalry
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . oh you do Shawn? interesting
Shawn Daysleeper: . yes, a place of honour, bright
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . really? hmmm I don't see it as bright at all. I see it as a kind of misty, unreal place, a bit gloomy
Shawn Daysleeper: . well, I would hate to be an elf killed in say the first age, my soul hanging out in misty place for thousands of years
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . ㋡
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . some of them seem to have been released. I suppose they lived in the Undying Lands, since we hear of very few returning to Middle Earth
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . how do we know?
Shawn Daysleeper: . we don't
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . there is some uncertainty whether the Glorfindel of Rivendell was the same person as the Glorfindel of Gondolin
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . nods
Shawn Daysleeper: . oh ya I wondered that myself
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . another point Tolkien never clarified, or maybe never decided
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . sometimes we think more on the logistics of the world a writer created than the writer themself do
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . :D
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . lol oh yes
Shawn Daysleeper nods
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . so maybe we are over-analyzing?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . writing the stories is a lot harder than picking them apart
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . and look what a huge body of work it is. Imagine trying to remember every single detail
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Perhaps Mandos is meant to be part Valar, part Judge, Part Seer?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . as judge, what is his role, still? what difference does his decision make?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . For the Noldor, a lot
Shawn Daysleeper: . maybe he judges when the elves are reborn? based on their actions?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . judges pronounce sentences, decisions...
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . or based on whether they have learned better, sitting around in Mandos thinking
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . the facts are weighed according to a standard...and the judge pronounces the consequence of when someone violates the law... As Mandos did with the Noldor, so perhaps he is Illuvatar's "mouthpiece" for the elves.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes, so that suggests he has some control over consequences
Shawn Daysleeper: . interesting
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . to a limited degree, he can choose to defy Illuvatar. But we don't see him do that.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I meant, his decisions would affect the dead elves, in some way
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . absolutely
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . he decided when, or whether, they can be reborn (or return, or whatever)?
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . that's a lot of power
Shawn Daysleeper: . ya
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . that then makes the fact he is married to Vaire mean more.
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . how so?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . If that is Mandos' role.....consider her role...she weaves the stories of all beings, yes? So she is akin to the Greek Fates? between her and Mandos you have a representation of the job of the Fates....
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I pictured her more as recording their stories
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . to spin out the thread of a person's live, to measure it's length, and to cut it at the proper time.
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . yes I thought it was as a recorder, like making great tapestries that tell stories
Shawn Daysleeper: . I see her role more like the role of the Norse fates Verthandi, Urd, Skuld
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . But recording the stories, isn't she also, in a way, though not directly, "measuring" the length? yes, that is another way to look at her.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . whereas the Fates, Norse or Greek, are influencing history themselves
Shawn Daysleeper: . one represents the past, one present, one future, but all in one being in Vaire. Tolkein was influenced by Norse mythology
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . good point Shawn, very much so
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . took a lot of names from them
Shawn Daysleeper: . so the Norse Fates could be Vaires role, same job, lol
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . excellent point
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . so Vaire might be influencing the living?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I think that is something that can be explored
Shawn Daysleeper: . maybe not to the extent as the Norns, Fates
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Shawn, you do present a good case :)
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . the Norns were a pretty strong influence
Shawn Daysleeper: . ya,they were strong
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . But females tend to take a weaker position to males in Tolkien. So we can't forget that.
Shawn Daysleeper nods
Rosie Gray nods too
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . so we have to try to reconstruct the "pre-Tolkien" version?
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . good lord, there's not enough of Tolkien that we have to reconstruct before him!
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . lol You know, the "pre Tolkien version of the stories, before the women got written out of it"
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . oh hehe yes the Dan Brown version
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . omg....hahahahah
Rosie Gray winks
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Ainur and Balrogs instead of Angels and Demons?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Maybe we can talk about Vaire next time?
Shawn Daysleeper: . so was Mando's role more influential on the dead than Vaire's on the living?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Good question
Shawn Daysleeper tries to wrap his brain around that
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . should we stop here for tonight, then?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . next week Mandos and Vaire?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . maybe Tolkien just had the feeling it ought to be important what happens to dead spirits
Shawn Daysleeper nods
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . well, it is, especially to fallen heroes?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . certainly those. That very human sense that the good should prosper and the evil suffer, and if it doesn't happen during life it ought to happen after death
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . the feeling of justice
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . and that is universal across all cultures
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . which maybe requires some kind of afterlife
Shawn Daysleeper nods
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . even though he doesn't seem to have given a huge amount of thought to the details
Shawn Daysleeper: . it is still amazing what details he does provide
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I agree
Shawn Daysleeper: . it must have been very difficult keeping all of this straight, the stories, well, as straight as he could lol
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . hmm, probably so
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I'm sure Christopher has some comments about how well he kept them straight
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . maybe all those Teleri from the Kinslaying have been allowed to go home by now
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . to be reincarnated?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yeah
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . or go back as adults, however that finally worked
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I wonder if Mandos and Vaire had to keep the Noldor and Teleri separated, at least at first
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I think that would have been wise
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I don't think anyone would have been released until they could get along
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Until they learned their lesson?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes What would they be waiting for, if not to learn?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Where do the balrogs and such go when they die?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . aren't they ainur?
Shawn Daysleeper: . ya I thought so
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Did they stay ainu?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . so they would become disembodied spirits, unless they eventually make new bodies
Shawn Daysleeper: . ya like what happened to saruman
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . exactly like that
Shawn Daysleeper: . yes, they just lose their body
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . the dark ones seem to have more trouble recreating bodies
Shawn Daysleeper: . yes, the balrogs population count does go down with time
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I think I made my brain hurt with all this tonight. lol
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I certainly didn't follow everything that was said tonight
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I don't thinks any of us followed it all.
Shawn Daysleeper: . followed what?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . the discussion
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Should we continue this next week? maybe discuss
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes, I think we were headed that way
