Telepathy, and Elves who refuse the summons to Mandos -- Reading Material

Parma Eldalamberon xvii, (Root) PHAN- continues:

The High Elves distinguished clearly between fanar, the 'physical' raiment adopted by the Spirits in self-incarnation, as a mode of communication with the Incarnates, and other modes of communication between minds, that might take 'visual' forms.

They held that a superior 'mind' by nature, or one exerting itself to its full in some extremity of need, could communicate a desired 'vision' direct to another mind. The receiving mind would translate this impulse into the terms familiar to it from its use of the physical organs of sight (and hearing) and project it, seeing it as something external. It thus much resembled a fana, except that in most cases, especially those concerned with minds of less power (either as communicators or receivers) it would frequently be less vivid, clear, or detailed, and might even be vague or dim or appear half-transparent. These 'visions' were in Quenya called indemmar 'mind-pictures'. Men were receptive of them. According to records of the time, mostly when presented to them by the Elves. To receive them from another human being required a special urgency of occasion, and a close connexion of kinship, anxiety or love between the two minds.

In any case indemmar were by Men mostly received in sleep (dream). If received when bodily awake they were usually vague and phantom-like (and often caused fear); but if they were clear and vivid, as the indemmar induced by the Elves might be, they were apt to mislead Men into taking them as 'real' things beheld by normal sight. Though this deceit was never intentional on the part of the Elves, it was often by them believed to be.

[Footnote: ] The matter of corrupted or malicious elvish beings is elsewhere considered. According to the Elves these were mainly disembodies Elves, who had met with some mortal damage, but rebelled against the summons to their spirits to go to their place of Awaiting. Those who so rebelled were mostly those who had been slain in the course of some wrong-doing. Thus they wandered as 'houseless' elf-souls, invisible except in the form of indemmar that they could induce in others, and filled often with malice and envy of the 'living', whether elvish or human.

Eru, the Maiar/Ainur, and the Children -- Reading Material

Parma Eldalamberon xvii, (Root) PHAN- continues:

But [the Valar and Maiar] remained in direct contact with Eru, though they, as far as the legends go, usually 'addressed' Him through Manwë the Elder King. ... By nature one of the Valar, or of those of the prime order of created spirits to which they belonged, would be in the presence of Eru only by presenting themselves in thought.

{I think in American we would say "merely by presenting ...".  I think he is saying it is easy, rather than difficult, for a Vala to communicate with Eru.}

The Eldar, and still less the Elves of Middle-earth (and again still less Men, especially those who had no contact with Elves or shunned it), knew little of such things; but they believed that 'direct' resort to Eru was not allowed to them, or at least not expected of them, except in gravest emergency. The Valar were themselves 'on trial' – an aspect of the mystery of 'free will' in created intelligences. They had sufficient knowledge of the will of Eru and his 'design' to undertake the responsibility of guiding its development by means of the great prowess given to them and according to their own reason and intelligence.

[Footnote:] At this time there was no way for the Incarnate direct to Eru, and though the Eldar knew well that the power of the Valar to counsel or assist them was only delegated, it was through them that they sought for enlightenment or aid from Eru.

There was, however, one element in the Design of Eru that remained a mystery: the Children of Eru, Elves and Men, the Incarnate. These were said to be an addition made by Eru Himself after the Revelation to the primal spirits of the Great Design. They were not subject to the subcreative activities of the Valar, and one of the purposes of this addition was to provide the Valar with objects of love, as being in no way their own subject, but having a direct relationship to Eru Himself, like their own but different from it. They were, or were to be, thus 'other' than the Valar, independent creations of His love, and so objects for their reverence and true (entirely unselfregarding) love.

Another purpose they had, which remained a mystery to the Valar, was to complete the Design by 'healing' the hurts which it suffered, and so ultimately not to recover 'Arda Unmarred' (that is the world as it would have been if Evil had never appeared), but the far greater thing 'Arda Healed'.

With regard to Elves and Men Eru had made one absolute prohibition: the Valar were not to attempt to dominate the Children (even for what might seem to the Valar to be their own good), neither by force nor fear nor pain, nor even by the awe and reverence that their wisdom and overwhelming majesty might inspire if fully revealed. The minds of the Children were not open to the Valar (except by free will of the Children), and could not be invaded or violated by the Valar except with disastrous consequences: their breaking and enslaving, and the substitution in them of the dominating Vala as a God in place of Eru.

The Valar – all save one, Melkor – obeyed this prohibition by Eru, according to their wisdom [footnote mark]. But there was thus introduced an element of uncertainty into all their operations after the Coming of the Elves and Men. The wills and desires and the resultant deeds of the Elves remained forever in some measure unpredictable, and their minds not always open to admonition and instruction that was not (as was forbidden) issued as commands supported by latent power. This was even more evident in the case of Men, either by their nature, or by their early subjection to the lies of Melkor, or by both.

It was held by some that the Valar had even earlier failed in their 'trials' when wearying of their destructive war with Melkor they removed into the West, which was first intended to be a fortress whence they might issue to renew the War, but became a Paradise of peace, while Middle-earth was corrupted and darkened by Melkor, long unopposed. The obduracy of Men and the great evils and injuries which they inflicted upon themselves,and also, as their power increased, upon other creatures and even upon the world itself, was thus in part attributable to the Valar. Not to their willful revolt and pride, but to mistakes which were not by design intended to oppose the will of Eru, though they revealed a failure in understanding of His purposes and in confidence in Him.

[Footnote:] This is said because the invitation given to the Eldar to remove to Valinor and live unendagered by Melkor was not in fact according to the design of Eru. It arose from anxiety, and it mgiht be said from failure in trust of Eru, from anxiety and fear of Melkor, and the decision of the Eldar to accept the invitation was due to the overwhelming effect of their contact, while still in their inexperienced youth, with the bliss of Aman and the beauty and majesty of the Valar. It had disastrous consequences in diminishing the Elves of Middle-earth and so depriving Men of a large measure of the intended help and teaching of their 'elder brethren', and exposing them more dangerously to the power and deceits of Melkor. Also since it was in fact alien to the nature of the Elves to live under protection in Aman, and not (as was intended) in Middle-earth, one consequence was the revolt of the Noldor.

“Fana” Body of a Maia/Ainu -- Reading Material

Continuing in Parma Eldalamberon xvii, with highlights from the 7½ pages of variations on the root PHAN-, in which JRRT discusses quite a bit about the Valar.  In this case, his ideas seem fairly consistant in all versions.

(Root) PHAN- The basic sense of this was 'cover, screen, veil', but it had a special development in the Eldarin tongues. This was largely due to what appears to have been its very ancient application to clouds, especially to separate floating clouds as (partial) veils over the blue sky, or over the sun, moon, or stars. This application ... was so ancient that when {Quenya fana, Sindarin fân, and related words were} applied to lesser, handmade things this was felt to be a transference from the sense 'cloud', and words of this group were mainly applied to things of soft textures, veils, mantles, curtains and the like, of white or pale colours.

...

In Quenya, owing to close relations of the Eldar in Valinor with the Valar and other lesser spirits of their order, fana developed a special sense. It was applied to the visible bodily forms adopted by these spirits, when they took up their abode on Earth, as the normal “raiment” of their otherwise invisible being. In these fanar they were seen and known by the Eldar, to whom glimpses of other and more awe-inspiring manifestations were seldom given. But the Elves of Valinor asserted that unclad and unveiled the Valar were perceived by some among them as lights (of different hues) which their eyes could not tolerate; whereas the Maiar were usually invisible unclad, but their presence was revealed by their fragrance.

[Footnote:] This applied only to those uncorrupted. Melkor, they said, was invisible, and his presence was revealed only by great dread and by a darkness that dimmed or blotted out the light and hues of all things near him. The Maiar corrupted by him stank. For this reason neither he nor any of the evil Maiar ever approached one of the Eldar that they wished to persuade or deceive except clad in their fanar. These they could still make to appear beautiful to Elvish eyes, if they wished – until after the great treachery of Melkor and the destruction of the Trees. After that Melkor (Morgoth) and his servants were perceived as forms of evil and enemies undisguised.

Lihan remembers Sauron fooling the Elves of Eregion and the Humans of Númenor, during the Second Age.

... Since these fanar usually appeared 'radiant' (in some degree), as if lit by a light within, the word fana acquired in Quenya an additional sense as 'shining shape', and this addition of radiance affected other {related words, including the now-usual Quenya word for cloud: fanya.} ... But this was used only of white clouds, sunlit or moonlit, or of clouds reflecting sunlight as in the sunset or sunrise. ...

[Footnote:] The fanar of the great Valar were said by the Eldar who had dwelt in Valinor usually to have had a stature far greater than that of the tallest Elves, and when performing some great deed or rite, or issuing commands, to have assumed awe-inspiring height.

... No doubt this use aroused in the minds of the Sindar who had not seen the Valar in their own sacred land of Aman a mental picture of a majestic figure robed as if in shining cloud seen far away. ...

{Then he spends a long paragraph explaining that the firstborn Sindar had met Oromë, that King Elwë/Elu Thingol had visited Valinor, and Queen Melian was herself a Maia} ... so that, at least among the 'wise' of Doriath, much was known about the Valar.

The fanar of the Valar were not 'phantoms', but 'physical': that is, they were not 'visions' arising to the mind, or implanted there by the will of a superior mind or spirit, and then projected, but received through the bodily eyes.

[Footnote:] Or mainly so: the power of the presence of one of these spirits no doubt affected the reception and was responsible, for instance, for the impressions of 'radiance' with which the 'vision' was endowed.

The Valar had a command, great individually, almost complete as a united council, over the physical matter of Eä (the material universe). Their fanar which were originally devised out of love for the 'Children of Eru', the Incarnate, whom they were to guard and counsel, had the properties of the material of which the koar (or bodies) of the Elves (and also of Men) were formed: sc. they were not transparent, they cast shadows (if their inner luminosity was dimmed); they could move material objects, and were resisted by these, and resisted them. These fanar were, however, also personal expressions (in terms suitable to the apprehension of the Incarnate) of their individual 'natures' and functions, and were usually also clad in vestures of similar purpose.

But it is often mentioned in the legends that certain of the Valar, and occasionally of the Maiar, 'passed over the Sea', and appeared in Middle-earth. (Notably Oromë, Ulmo, and Yavanna.) The Valar and Maiar were essentially 'spirits', according to Elvish tradition given being before the making of Eä. They could go where they willed, that is could be present at once at any point in Eä where they desired to be.

Subject only to special limitations taken upon themselves or decreed by Eru. Thus after the final establishment of Arda, when the Valar, the spirits destined to be most concerned with this chosen stage for combat with Melkor, took up their abode on Middle-earth, they no longer passed beyond its confines. That is, according to Elvish tradition they remained, usually clad in their fanar, in physical residence on earth as its guardians.

Two of the references state that the Istari, the Five Wizards, “in the likeness of old Men” were examples of fanar. That would suggest JRRT did not make a strong distinction between a Maia's fana and a fully organic natural body.

Use of "Ainur" vs "Maiar" -- Reading Material

Lihan got Parma Eldalamberon XVII for Christmas.  (OK, strictly speaking, Lihan got herself Parma Eldalamberon XVII for Christmas.)  It is a compilation of notes JRRT wrote in the margins of his manuscripts and on scraps of paper, organized by the words and word-roots he was considering.  The notes sometimes expand to wider topics. He frequently had a word or name that he liked, and then adjusted the language to fit the word.  In some places his thoughts are quite consistent over the years, while some words and ideas were under constant revision.  So each entry in Parma Eldalamberon XVII is a snapshot of JRRT's thinking at one instant in his life.

Here is what I have found so far about the term "Ainur":

(Root) AYA-N, treat with awe/reverence. Cf. especially ainur, “the Holy Ones” ...

This ainur only appears in plural since after the Creation all those known were máyar. Máyar includes Valar and their lesser kin, but not those who either did not take part in the Great Theme, or else did not enter into Eä. So The Ainur is used only of the Spirits before Creation, or of those unnamed who are not concerned with it. ...

(Root) MAY- Original sense probably “make” (in artistic sense ..). The noun máya, maia was applied to all the angelic spirits created by Eru before the making of Eä. ...

(Root) MAY- [Cf. máya/maia, name of the Kin of the Valar, but especially of those of lesser power than the 9 great rulers. ...]

These come from two of four references to a (root) MAY-. The four references give three different meanings for the root.

 

The case for using “Ainu” as the generic word for this kind of being is that the word is used that way in the Silmarillion.

"If ever in their dealings with Elves and Men the Ainur have endeavoured to force them when they would not be guided, seldom has this turned to good."

from "Of the Beginning of Days"

 "So died ... Elwë Singollo, King of Doriath, who alone of all the Children of Ilúvatar was joined with one of the Ainur."

from "Of the Ruin of Doriath" 

Eärendil – Silmarillion Chapter 24

Present:

AelKennyr Rhiano

Shawn Daysleeper

Cinnamon Raymaker

Lihan Taifun

Dominique Darkwatch

Kellinar Trevellion

Summary:

Tolkien took the name Eärendil (Quenya for “lover of the sea”) from Anglo-Saxon Éarendel, (meaning “bright wanderer”, and referring to the Evening Star). In Old High German the name is Aurvandil and Auriwandalo.

Both Eärendil and Elwing were half-elven. Eärendil's parents were Tuor and Idril Celebrindal. Elwing's grandparents were Beren and Lúthien.

Because the Morning Star was set in the heavens as a sign of hope, immediately before the War of Wrath, the disappearance of the Morning Star (in Fellowship of the Fourth Age roleplay) should be cause for great concern. (The reaction has actually been rather bland so far.)

Does the Silmaril have intrinsic power? Or is it only important because people believe it is important?

Eärendil sailed from Beleriand to The West with a crew of 3 (plus Elwing as a passenger).

Maglor and Maedros killed quite a few elves, first attempting to get the Silmaril that Elwing had, then trying to get the other two that had been in Morgoth's crown. But Maglor did adopt Eärendil and Elwing's two sons, instead of killing them along with the rest of the town. Eärendil and Elwing would have assumed that everyone, including their sons, had been killed.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . ok then, Earendil, the War of Wrath, the Ainur do some serious interfering. Does anyone know when Tolkien was writing the part about Earendil? before or after his buddy Lewis wrote Voyage of the Dawn Treader?

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . Lewis wrote Dawn Treader in 1952

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . am I the only one who sees resemblences between the two stories?

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . has been a while since i read The Voyage of the Dawntreader, would have to go back to it again :)

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . ok, well then ...

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Well, I know that the name is derived from Anglo-Saxon Éarendel. And that Tolkien was enamoured of the sound of that name as early as ....ummmm...1912-1913?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . and what does Éarendel mean, in anglo-saxon?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Eärendil means 'Lover of the Sea'

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . that sounds like him, to like the sound of a word, and then figure out how to work it in. It means that in anglo-saxon?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . and the Anglo-Saxon word means "wanderer",bright wanderer, I think

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . "bright wanderer" -- that's a good name

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . However....

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . anyone read the SIlmarillion chapter? I feel like I am talking to myself

Dominique Darkwatch: . Sorries...I was refilling erm... refreshing my memory

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . awww I just looking through it again

Dominique Darkwatch: . I had not in awhile...had to wiki it to refresh my memory as the final battle of Morgoth

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Earendel is also Aurvandil, which is related to Old High German, Auriwandalo... Auriwandalo is attested as a historical Lombardic prince. A Latinized version, Horvandillus appears as the name of the father of Amleth (Shakespeare's Hamlet) :) Sorry, was checking my facts before I wrote that

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . a well-used name

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Aurvandil was mentioned in the Prose Edda. Which is a collections of tales from Norse mythology

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . Earendel appears in ancient Christian mythology as the brightest of Angels

AelKennyr Rhiano smiles and nods

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . not under the name "Earendil", though

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . well, the Anglo-saxon name points to Auriwandalo as the morning star that heralds the rising sun, as in Christ

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Auriwandalo does? wow That's the "bright wanderer" part again?

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . Aurvandill and Auriwandalo

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . The Old Norse together with the Anglo-Saxon evidence point to an astronomical myth, the name referring to a star, or a group of stars, and the Anglo-Saxon in particular points to the morning star as the herald of the rising Sun.

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . ya hehe

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E%C3%Aurendil

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Earendil

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . so very strong mythological connection between Earendil's name, and the morning star

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . which is a hallmark of Tolkien

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . the anglo-saxon and high germanic names, yes, from which earendil is derived

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . well, sometimes he just borrows the names, and puts them in a totally different context

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . that too

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . ok, so we have a strong connection between Earendil and the morning star

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . nod nod nod "Now when first Vingilot was set to sail in the seas of heaven, it rose unlooked for, glittering and bright; and the people of Middle-earth beheld it from afar and wondered, and they took it for a sign, and called it Gil-Estel, the Star of High Hope."

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . well, that makes it a real downer when Vingilot disappears, doesn't it?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . very much so....very Big Omen

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . yes

Cinnamon Raymaker nods

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . and somewhere there we had Earendil keeping watch that Morgoth didn't escape, too

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . I hope he gets a huge salary from working two jobs :P

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . with hazard pay, apparently

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . For the morning star to disappear....that should strike a cold fear through both Ainur and Elves.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . definitely. Oh, I see Earendil got a third job -- he killed a dragon in the battle

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . man...he is an over-achiever!

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . hehe

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Now, I have to admit I am confused....was Elwing half elven, too?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . yes. I had to look that one up. She was a granddaughter of Beren and Luthien. That's how she inherited Luthien's Silmarill

Cinnamon Raymaker nods

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . I find it interesting she should have chosen to be elven and he would have chosen human.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . And Beren had a cousin who was an ancestor of Tuor who married Idril, and Tuor and Idril were Earendil's parents, so there was half-elven on both sides

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . ok

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . I would think that to hear of the disappearance of the morning star would profoundly affect all the eldar elven races....because of this War of Wrath.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . because the appearing of the morning star had been a sign of hope?

AelKennyr Rhiano nods. I think the disappearance may cause ones like Ingwe, for example, and others to think that perhaps we are heading for another War. another confrontation or dark time.

Dominique Darkwatch listens attentively

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . every age has it's big war

Dominique Darkwatch: . So..another war.....with the possible escape of Morgoth?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Many civilizations look for potents in the sky to herald big change, I am sure that would be the first fear they would all have, yes.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . I think everyone might be worried about Morgoth escaping

Dominique Darkwatch: . Since this was part of Earendil's job..to watch that he didn't

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . And if he were to be found still imprisoned, that may perhaps cause greater fear if the whole of Ea seemed to be embroiled in chaos.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Oh, good point !

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . "But Morgoth himself the Valar thrust through the Doors of Night beyond the walls of the World, into the TImeless Void; and a guard is set for ever on those walls, and Earendil keeps watch upon the ramparts of the sky"

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . hmmm

Dominique Darkwatch: . Oh dear

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Poor Elwing never gets time with her hubby!

Dominique Darkwatch: . Earendil guards the guard, so to speak

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . ll!

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . "Yet the lies that Melkor sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days."

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . He has a day and a night job!

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . She might have to rescue him yet hehehe

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . that would be sweet

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . heh heh

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . she's stuck somewhere else atm though

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . and the Silmaril, don't forget the Silmaril

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . hehehe ***Yes*** oh, would that call to Elwing I wonder

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . So...which is worse...to have Melkor freed from his prison, or able to direct a new evil from within his prison?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . well, his evil is almost self-propagating, even when he is in prison

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Would what call to Elwing?

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . the silmaril

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . the Silmaril. She does seem to have a connection to it

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . the silmarls are not really magical, eh?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . not clear. That much Light from the Trees must have some power

Cinnamon Raymaker nods

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . By the 4th Age, where would it be?

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . Earendil has the silmaril

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . was it not with earendil still

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Elwing believed it had power, when she tried to keep it from the Noldor, and a lot of strange things happened to Elwing and Earendil, when they were travelling with the Silmaril

Dominique Darkwatch: . Didn't Beleren burn his hand on it, and didn't it do something to the wolf that swallowed it?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . and it must have....because Ulmo responded to her plea for help in a very extraordinary way?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . yes

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . ***Yes***

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . and, with it, they sucessfully travelled to the Blessed Lands

Cinnamon Raymaker nods

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . yes, no small feat

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . indeed

Dominique Darkwatch: . So there is something extraordinary about them

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . However.... sometimes, you embue something with power because you believe it is powerful. It had become a focus of attention and conflict and belief in its importance.

Cinnamon Raymaker nods

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . I saw them as a legacy symbol, rather than having real power

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Perhaps that was enough to keep it from falling into Noldor's hands.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . legacy?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Like capturing the enemy's standard on the battlefield.

Dominique Darkwatch: . I don't think anyone ever argued the point of their worth

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . ya, legacy of the legendary ages, of the light of the trees

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . no, I don't think so, either, Dominique

Dominique Darkwatch: . Melkor himself made them his crown jewels

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . ya they are priceless, but, I am not sure they were really powerful in themselves

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . that is a very good question.

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . the palantiri were more useful, than the silmarls for instance

Dominique Darkwatch: . They were a source of light, but also a source of corruption not unlike the one ring

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . if Earendil dropped it, and it was found by someone who knew nothing of it's history, would it still be "magical" for them?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . so if they have power, it is neither of good nor evil.

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . they may see it as a valuble gemstone

Dominique Darkwatch: . They were coveted by all, including the valar

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . And the silmaril is still with Earendil?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . last we knew

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . ya I believe so

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . oh, boy....

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . the silmaril is the morning star light

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . the Silmaril is what makes the morning star so shiny

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . so when the morning star disappeared...so did the silmaril.

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . ya hehe, so, dark forces could have captured it

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . yep

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . whatever happened to the Mariner

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Wow, aside from Olwe and Elwing, everyone else is being rather blaise about its disappearance.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . that seems the most likely explanation so far

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . evil or just dissappeared

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . i agree. They don't really get it. hehehe

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . yeah, but even the Valar are not reacting. wow

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . has to be some explanation

Dominique Darkwatch: . Sooo...this whole thing needs to be rediscovered

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . nod nod nodnod

Dominique Darkwatch: . The legend and what it means

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . ya the Valar ned to react to it's dissapearance

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . sheesh, the Valar hardly react to anything -- bunch of sleeping Valar

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . no kidding! Olwe had a big reaction on the deck of the swanship....I was going to refer to it again in future rps

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . Nole and Elenwe had a reaction

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . yes, but considering everything....rather mild...Daza had a mild reaction.

Dominique Darkwatch: . I guess perhaps Arien might take note of it....she's kind of used to just doing her thing

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . She may not known the significance.

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . thing is there are three silmarils - one in the skies, one in the fires in the heart of the world and one in the seas --their "long homes". Reading that chapter

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Oh, someone goes for the one in the sea, and Ulmo would be all over that.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . you suppose Ulmo knows where the one in the sea is?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . I do...because Ulmo is supposedly the most "informed" of the Valar. Telegraph, Telephone, Tell-a-Ulmo

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . lol

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . hahaha

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . so - who is the one who needs to react to this one, the heavens

Dominique Darkwatch: . No..if it was missing she would know its significance. And the eclipse is an elaborate dance between her and Tilion that is rare....that would've ben a good occasion

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . But remember, she is living 4 ages later. And in middle earth...so....would she know the full ramification? Oh, I meant Dominque the cleric...sorry

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . I would expect Arien to realize the significance of VIngilot going missing

Dominique Darkwatch: . She would remember the war of wrath...as involved her kindred ainur as well as her balrog cousins

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Yes, I believe Arien would indeed know and remember. Sorry for the mind slip, there.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Dominique the cleric would know the old history, and be aware what kind of bad omen this was

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . but only if someone kept the history alive.

Dominique Darkwatch: . As a clerique....yes...I would have to "rediscover" the legends in ancient scrolls as this is how she has been brought along...apart from direct revelation

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . oh, that is good

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . And if none around her act...that would imply that perhaps it has been lost over the course of time. oooouuuu That IS good

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . yes

Dominique Darkwatch: . But there is no one in Sylvhara who knows, yes

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . it's been cloudy a lot in Sylvhara?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Daza noticed the disappearance of the morning star. But .....roflmao AelKennyr Rhiano winks at Shawn...they must not have top notch sailors. Else they would have keenly missed the morning star.

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . hehe

Dominique Darkwatch: . But as a mage, his belief system is not along the same lines...this is an academic problem for him

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Agreed

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . I noticed Earendil sailed across the ocean with a crew of 3

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Do we know who they were?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . their names were mentioned: "Falathar, Erellont, and Aerandir"

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . they are

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Elves? Vanya elves?

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . would not be vanya

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . no no, ones he brought from middle earth

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . oh, ok

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . maybe sindar

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . but he told them to stay in the ship, when he went ashore on the Blessed Lands, so they were allowed to go home, since they hadn't technically landed. There were sindar sailors in the falas region, under Cirdan. Of course, he TOLD Elwing to stay in the ship, too, but she didn' t obey

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . lol

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . she insisted on coming with him

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . hmmmmm....would be interesting to know if all three were with him when the morning star disappeared.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . plucky Lady!

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . her heritage i guess

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . They never were on the morning star. The Valar sent them back home to middle earth

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Is EOk...confused.

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . I think they left Valinor before earendil became the star

Dominique Darkwatch: . So Earendil mans the ship alone?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . yes

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . I thought you found a mention where they helped Earendil steer the morning star.

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . it looks that way

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . the three elves helped earendil and elwing get to valinor from beleriand, to petition to the valar

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . yes, that I remember

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . no, I said he sailed from middle earth across the ocean with a crew of 3, which sounds like a pretty sweet ship

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . they steered the ship on mortal waters, never as the star

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . yes.....I just got confused.....blushes

Shawn Daysleeper smiles

Dominique Darkwatch: . Once the Valar got a whiff of the Silmarils, they would have found a way for that ship to reach them

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . so Nole probably doesn't need much of a crew, in coastal waters heh heh

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . nope hehe, Nole's a pro

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . heh heh

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . "Maglor answered: 'If it be truly the Silmaril which we saw cast into the sea which rises again by the power of the Valar, then let us be glad; for its glory is seen now by many, and is yet secure from all evil.'"

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Why was it Elwing and Earendil could handle the Silmaril safely? and no one else could

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . Maglor was noldor, perhaps?

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . maybe because they represented a meeting of the races

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . yes, he was. Maglor was one of the Sons of Feanor

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . right

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . getting really tired of the Oath by then

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . so maybe their oath backfired on them when they actually had a silmarl, it seems like he killed to get it after the war was over

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . Maglor - didn't he take the sons of earendil and elwing

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . ya, him and the one that had the silmarl that ended up in the fire of earth. They killed to get them. The last two sons of feanor

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Maglor was the one who took Elrond and Elros, yes

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . but they didn't kill elros and elrond. If they had things would not have panned out they way they did

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . yes, but Elwing didn't know that

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . ah

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . k, I thought they killed someone to procure the silmarls

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . she and Earendil thought there was nothing left to go home to

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . right

Dominique Darkwatch: . wait......they kidnaped Elwing and Earendil's sons?

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . they brought them up

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . well, "kidnapped" or "rescued from the sack of their homeland"

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . Maglor took pity on them and cherished them it says

Dominique Darkwatch: . Oh...well that's good then!LOL!

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Earendil was off at sea, Elwing had just jumped into the sea holding the Silmaril, to keep it from the invading army

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . this is such a sad tale. Cinnamon Raymaker sniffs

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . I think Elwing assumed everyone was going to be killed

Cinnamon Raymaker nods

Dominique Darkwatch: . wow

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . most of the elves in the settlement were killed, I think

Dominique Darkwatch: . In the war of wrath

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . probably why she jumped in the ocean

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . and then, later Maglor and Maedhros killed the guards ( probably Vanyar) who were guarding the other two Silmarils that had been taken from Melkor

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . Yet he yielded at last to the will of Maedhros, and they took counsel together how they should lay hands on the Silmarils. And they disguised themselves, and came in the night to the camp of Eönwë, and crept into the place where the Silmarils were guarded; and they slew the guards, and laid hands on the jewels. Then all the camp was raised against them, and they prepared to die, defending themselves until the last. But Eönwë would not permit the slaying of the sons of Fëanor; and departing unfought they fled far away. Each of them took to himself a Silmaril, for they said: 'Since one is lost to us, and but two remain, and we two alone of our brothers, so is it plain that fate would have us share the heirlooms of our father.'

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . and one of them jumped into fires of the earth hehe

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . But the jewel burned the hand of Maedhros in pain unbearable; and he perceived that it was as Eönwë had said, and that his right thereto had become void, and that the oath was vain. And being in anguish and despair he cast himself into a gaping chasm filled with fire, and so ended; and the Silmaril that he bore was taken into the bosom of the Earth,

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . so two were lost

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . lost, although we might think Aule and Ulmo know where to find them

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . nod nod nod

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . now we have to find the other one again

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . yes indeed

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . it seems Maglor may have survived

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . I was thinking that, too, Shawn

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . And it is told of Maglor that he could not endure the pain with which the Silmaril tormented him; and he cast it at last into the Sea, and thereafter he wandered ever upon the shores, singing in pain and regret beside the waves. For Maglor was mighty among the singers of old, named only after Daeron of Doriath; but he came never back among the people of the Elves.

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . so he could have survived the events of the 1st age

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . how could he be a foster-father to Elrond and Elros if he disappeared so soon after?

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . hmm

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . in whic case someone could npc him lol

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . how long between when Earendil sailed, and the War of Wrath?

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . it seems that the timing is not clear

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . hmmmmm, good question, but I don't know

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . maybe he took it away and kept it for a while before throwing it into the sea

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . well, that's true, maybe there was some time elasped before he threw it into the sea

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . hehehe ***Yes*** I think the statement in the chapter was just about what happened to the silmarils Lihan

Dominique Darkwatch: . It sounds like we might need an Earendil.....do we have one?

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . we did have, but he doesn't rp

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . could npc Maglor, either as surviving, or as having served his time in Mandos and been released

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . No, no, we do not. We have no Earendil in the 4th Age.

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . ah ok. Was thnking of before

Dominique Darkwatch looks at Cinnamon "Any prospects?"

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . for earendil?

Dominique Darkwatch: . yes

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . had thought he had disappeared. hehe

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . he did

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . ya

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . i know

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . well, how can anyone rescue him?

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . i don't have any ideas. Hang on, were you talking about another player, or were you talking about a rescue

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . huh?

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . valar rescue team?

Dominique Darkwatch: . Sooo....how did this idea for the disappearance of the morning star come about? Was there some thought as to its ramifications and resolution?

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . k - elwing still has recall of Ulmo to consider,probably need the help of the valar

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . unless the Vanyar want a quest?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . It was inspired by the fact that Cinnamon did not have/want/need a Earendil.

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . ya, would be a good possibility for the vanyar

Kellinar Trevellion snort...somebody say quest?

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . heheh

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . are the Vanyar getting bored?

Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . What quest?

Dominique Darkwatch: . hahaha

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . huh?

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . hehehe

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . rescuing Earendil the morning star

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . and recovering the Silmaril

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . so Elwing 's heart is mended, and the hope of all is restored

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . we will find him

Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . O.O Um....I'm as clueless as to Earendil's whereabouts.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . you and the rest of the universe

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . lol

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Those would be very good as possible storylines. However....they would need a lot of forethought and developement because they do not need to be rp that is hurriedly resolved.

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . ok then thats homework

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . No, I did not say that.

Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Perhaps the other two silmarils may point to the missing Earendil?

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . plausible

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . I think before you embark on these as possiblities, you need to spend ALOT of time considering them for all angles.

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . indeed

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . or you will be very disappointed with the results, and it will not be all that it could be as a good rp.

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . and as always we put them by you Ael

AelKennyr Rhiano blushes...actually before the rp leaders...

Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Yup...and I know next to nothing!

Cinnamon Raymaker: . . have you read the cards Kell? hehehe

Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . I mean about the silmarils.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . I think there was some prophecy that the other two Silmarils will not be recovered until after the Last Battle

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . yes,I believe you are right, Lihan.

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . oh?

Dominique Darkwatch: . aye...I'm hearing the morning star idea was not entirely thought through

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . So, things like that would have to be researched.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . It was developed to explain why Elwing was in the rp without her spouse, and has been useful as an omen of evil things to come.

Cinnamon Raymaker nods. Except no one except Olwe saw it as such

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . To say it was not thought through is not accurate, because we never discussed it being more than that.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . and it keeps working just fine as long as we don't need to find him immediately

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . yes. It CAN be developed into a storyline...easily.

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . ya it could

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . It just needs very directed thought, planning and a definite long term goal.

Dominique Darkwatch: . Okay...so it is okay if people start getting excited about it?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Oh, yes, they should....

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . the stars in the heavens are important to a variety of peoples. Astrologers, astronomers, sailors, mages, clerics...elves, ainur...should all be flipping out. And humans, Just to name a few.

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . Nole has

Dominique Darkwatch: . And we can get some flipping as long as it goes somewhere

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . And it can.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . it is certainly an omen of "evil on the loose"

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . nod nod nod nod nod nod I mean, Earendil has never called in sick on his job before....now he is gone!

Cinnamon Raymaker cringes

Dominique Darkwatch: . Soo...Elwing is well aware of this already, yes?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . yes. Olwe, too. Nole and Elenwe

Cinnamon Raymaker nods

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . the Ainur Council knows. Daza reacted to the star, if not the significance

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . which is what you would expect

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . yes

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . So, for example, Dominque could be giving the Sylvan elves the wake-up call...."Oh, wow, something is very wrong."

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Dominique would think of the story of Earendil as "history", where Daza would think of it as "some foreign legend", right?

Dominique Darkwatch: . Yeah...I've been preoccupied with the plight of Olwe

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . That would be my thought. And that is not unexpected.

Dominique Darkwatch: . Yes...Daza regards much of this is legend and myth

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . assuming he as even heard that legend

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . exactly

Dominique Darkwatch: . The loss of a star, though, does pique his interest I think...but I'm not sure he woukd see the same significance and connection as me

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . I would be surprised if he did.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . right

Dominique Darkwatch: . Maybe if he met a Vala face-to-face, it might

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . But then, again, would he recognize them for who/what they are?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Should we continue this discussion next week, too? It seems we have a definite interest in it.

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . sure :)

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . and we have hardly gotten to the War yet

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . I know!

Dominique Darkwatch: . At least the RP implications...it seems REALLY relevant

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . It does. I am glad we had this topic tonight

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . I was really struck by how relevant this chapter was to the RP

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . yes, it is

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . and all the parts about what motivated the Valar to get involved, and the Valar making exceptions. There is a lot in this chapter

Dominique Darkwatch: . Here I was hoping for a slower week! LOL!

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . There is a lot. It makes for some rich discussion.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . ok , continue this chapter next week!

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . yay!

Dominique Darkwatch: . So if the council knows, that means all of the valar and maiar knows

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . yes